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Re:Ecuador Says It Still Backs Assange, but WikiLeaks Says I... by dogma1138 on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @12:37PM (#12736176)
And why is that a bad thing? you can't leak stuff during negotiations it blows everything up.

The FARC deal is now dead as it seems since the referendum has failed but if there was anything in those emails that could have jeopardized the deal it should not have been released.

Re:Ecuador Says It Still Backs Assange, but WikiLeaks Says I... by cmdrfred on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @12:39PM (#12736190)
If the truth blows up your negotiations, you are a cheat.
Re:Ecuador Says It Still Backs Assange, but WikiLeaks Says I... by dogma1138 on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @12:42PM (#12736232)
You don't know how negotiations work do you?

Everyone comes to the table with points that would make the other side walk away, and everyone has their initial redlines.

These change during the negotiations, premature release of information backs one or both parties into a corner in which further negotiations are no longer possible.

This is the real world, not some fairy tale.

Re:Ecuador Says It Still Backs Assange, but WikiLeaks Says I... by toomuchtodo on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @12:47PM (#12736288)
> This is the real world, not some fairy tale.

Indeed. And in this world now, information asymmetry is greatly reduced. Politicians can live with it.

The fairy tale is you can hide your dirty laundry until you've fleeced your negotiating opponent.

Re:Ecuador Says It Still Backs Assange, but WikiLeaks Says I... by dogma1138 on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @12:53PM (#12736376)
It's not dirty laundry its negotiations the deal would become public.

Look at how many deals with Iran and N. Korea blew up early own because one side leaked (usually intentionally to tank the negotiations) some information that meant no further negotiations would be possible.

Re:Ecuador Says It Still Backs Assange, but WikiLeaks Says I... by oldmanjay on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @01:06PM (#12736517)
Your point seems to be that because these people want to play a game using us as pieces, we should accept that they should get what they want. You never really get to why, though. You just leave it there, like a religious belief. Care to expand the reasoning?
Re:Ecuador Says It Still Backs Assange, but WikiLeaks Says I... by dogma1138 on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @01:20PM (#12736672)
Have you ever fought with your loved one? do you tell them everything? do you tell everyone everything all the time? If so we have a name for that, but you can't really hold a relationship if you act like that. We don't go and broadcast everything that was said to us in confidence, we don't share every thought we have.

If say there was an email from hilary saying that "The US would back X amount of billions in guaranteed loans to provide funding for infrastructure informer FARC controlled zones" one party now knows exactly how much to ask for, one party now knows a limit, one party now has more power... Or here is another example say on day 2 of the negotiations there would be some preliminary agreement on how many and what type of sentences would be commuted that's just one small point of the negotiation it hasn't been finalized but if leaked it can blow up the entire deal. FARC can say it's too little, the Colombian government/people can say it's too much, and all over something that haven't been finalized or agreed upon, on something that is likely to change 50 times over during the negotiations. You seem to think for some reason that leaking things prematurely isn't using you as pieces, it is you are a puppet of your emotions and feeding you specifically tuned information is effectively playing you like a string.

Re:Ecuador Says It Still Backs Assange, but WikiLeaks Says I... by nitrogen on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @04:15PM (#12738236)
So release more information that allows the people to make rational choices. The people are irrational because they are treated as pawns and manipulated with controlled information. If two countries are negotiating in ways that would upset their own citizens, then those countries' leaders should only blame themselves for the way they have conditioned their citizens to behave.
Re:Ecuador Says It Still Backs Assange, but WikiLeaks Says I... by dogma1138 on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @04:22PM (#12738292)
More often than not there isn't more information to release, because that information isn't there yet.

People are irrational because they are irrational.

Re:Ecuador Says It Still Backs Assange, but WikiLeaks Says I... by nitrogen on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @04:38PM (#12738441)
People are irrational because they are irrational.

So let's fix that first instead of continuing to manipulate the flow of information; the rest will follow.

Re:Ecuador Says It Still Backs Assange, but WikiLeaks Says I... by jospoortvliet on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @03:50AM (#12741885)
Right. Replace people with computers perhaps?

Because our few pounds of gray matter will never be rational. Us techies tend to think we are, which is exactly why we're even more prone to act irrational in some situations!

Re:Ecuador Says It Still Backs Assange, but WikiLeaks Says I... by nitrogen on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @05:59AM (#12742443)
Defeatism ensures defeat. Instead of thinking of reasons not to try, why not try to come up with solutions?
Re:Ecuador Says It Still Backs Assange, but WikiLeaks Says I... by jsprogrammer on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @01:41PM (#12736879)
It's not possible to tell everyone everything all the time. Further, everyone would be so spammed by everyone else, it's likely no one would be able to know what was going on.

It has become (and assuming we are still here in the future, it will become even moreso) easier to broadcast more. The primary reason people don't go around broadcasting everything is because they can't. Most people have been capable of broadcasting very little.

Consider what you are arguing (or at least, appear to be): "Yeah, we fucked you over in the past (and we may do so again in the future) and we didn't want to tell you about it (and tried not to [and will try to not tell you about it in the future]), but just play nice and give us this stuff we want, please?"

I see this argument continuing to be rejected wholesale.

Re:Ecuador Says It Still Backs Assange, but WikiLeaks Says I... by fixermark on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @01:37PM (#12736847)
The condensed version is "There are some issues so contentious that negotiation by committee does not work."

Imagine trying to end WWII if every citizen of every nation in that war were sitting at the negotiating table.

Re:Ecuador Says It Still Backs Assange, but WikiLeaks Says I... by dogma1138 on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @01:52PM (#12736974)
WWII ended with unconditional surrender IIRC.

A good modern example would be the middle east peace process, every time there are negotiations and a deal is on the table it blows up more often than not because of premature and selective release of information.

The selective part doesn't have to be intentionally i.e. in one side only releasing part of the information but simply because the other points were not settled upon yet.

Negotiations are like trying to balance an egg on a point of a needle, if they aren't they are often one sided.

Re:Ecuador Says It Still Backs Assange, but WikiLeaks Says I... by cmdrfred on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @12:48PM (#12736307)
If it was so important, why the casual nature of infosec here then? Email is not secure. The real reason here is the Clinton/Goldman leaks and everyone knows it.
Re:Ecuador Says It Still Backs Assange, but WikiLeaks Says I... by raverbashing on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @12:45PM (#12736263)
Sure, next time you go to buy a car or a house just show them your bank account balance/mortgage values
Re:Ecuador Says It Still Backs Assange, but WikiLeaks Says I... by maxerickson on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @12:47PM (#12736291)
That's pretty much what you do to buy a mortgage. Err, "negotiate" a mortgage.
Re:Ecuador Says It Still Backs Assange, but WikiLeaks Says I... by jdmichal on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @02:27PM (#12737276)
A mortgage is generally not a negotiation because most people have no leverage against the bank. When the options are get a mortgage or you don't get a house, the bank gets to dictate the terms. A millionaire who wants to finance a house that they could buy outright for reasons has leverage. They can and do have actual negotiations.

http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/Mark-Zuckerberg-s-mor...

Re:Ecuador Says It Still Backs Assange, but WikiLeaks Says I... by FireBeyond on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @02:46PM (#12737448)
I have to say I have a fairly decent moral objection to this:

"When you can borrow at a rate below inflation, you're borrowing for free," McBride said. "This is the concept of using other people's money and it preserves financial flexibility for the borrower."

If you're borrowing at under market rates, we, the market are effectively subsidizing you. Does Zuckerberg need subsidies in order to have a mortgage?

Re:Ecuador Says It Still Backs Assange, but WikiLeaks Says I... by jdmichal on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @03:28PM (#12737858)
Almost guaranteed that this was not a subsidy. Even for the extremely wealthy, banks are not in the business of giving away money for nothing.

The mortgage was likely only one piece of the deal negotiated. It costs the bank nothing to write an at-cost mortgage, but gives Zuckerberg value though additional liquidity. Items that cost nothing yet provide value to the other side are excellent things to throw on the table during negotiations to help seal the deal. One example: The bank may have the adjustable rate tied to the balance in an asset management account -- if Zuckerberg takes his money elsewhere, the mortgage also becomes profitable.

Re:Ecuador Says It Still Backs Assange, but WikiLeaks Says I... by raverbashing on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @12:48PM (#12736308)
A mortgage yes, but not the house
Re:Ecuador Says It Still Backs Assange, but WikiLeaks Says I... by maxerickson on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @01:35PM (#12736832)
Right, I was pointing out that there are negotiations where one side expects the other to lay their cards on the table and has the leverage/position to make it happen (underwriters don't care a whole lot about individual mortgages).
Re:Ecuador Says It Still Backs Assange, but WikiLeaks Says I... by cmdrfred on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @01:14PM (#12736607)
Commodities have prices set by supply and demand. We know how much a publicly traded company makes due to quarterly reports, this has no effect on its price buying a barrel of oil. Nor did my income play a role in buying my house. What I make has nothing to do with what my house is worth. Unless you are a cheat.
Re:Ecuador Says It Still Backs Assange, but WikiLeaks Says I... by fixermark on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @01:39PM (#12736865)
Inconveniently, that's not actually how economics works. Values aren't set in stone; they're negotiations between seller and buyer, where information asymmetry moves the price point.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination

Re:Ecuador Says It Still Backs Assange, but WikiLeaks Says I... by cmdrfred on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @02:29PM (#12737296)
How exactly does that work for commodities? What prevents the buyer from moving on to a seller that simply refues to engage in that practice?
Re:Ecuador Says It Still Backs Assange, but WikiLeaks Says I... by fixermark on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @03:00PM (#12737590)
For commodities, in general, buyers do move on to a seller who doesn't price-negotiate---commodities are interchangeable enough that a buyer has the liberty of saying no because there are alternatives the buyer values equivalently. Until sellers find a way to incentivize price negotiation again by making the buyer believe they are getting a special deal that applies only to them or people like them.

Stores in the US generally don't price negotiate at the register, but they do have coupons that discriminate shoppers into loyal shoppers (those that take the time to track down the coupons or join the store's particular flavor of loyalty program) and ordinary shoppers.

Re:Ecuador Says It Still Backs Assange, but WikiLeaks Says I... by cmdrfred on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @04:48PM (#12738550)
>For commodities, in general, buyers do move on to a seller who doesn't price-negotiate---commodities are interchangeable enough that a buyer has the liberty of saying no because there are alternatives the buyer values equivalently.

So how does your income play into house prices? We had many houses on offer when I bought last year. We spoke with experts and offered slightly below market. If they countered above market, we would have walked.

> Stores in the US generally don't price negotiate at the register, but they do have coupons that discriminate shoppers into loyal shoppers (those that take the time to track down the coupons or join the store's particular flavor of loyalty program) and ordinary shoppers.

Isn't that more to do with advertising than income discrimination? I know wealthy housewives who have the time to clip coupons, my working class wife and I do not.

I'm not denying these practices exist, but its always sleazy businesses that engage in them and most consumers end up moving on once they catch wise. Grocery store vs. Amazon for example.

Re:Ecuador Says It Still Backs Assange, but WikiLeaks Says I... by fixermark on Wednesday October 19, 2016 @05:58PM (#12748074)
> So how does your income play into house prices? We had many houses on offer when I bought last year. We spoke with experts and offered slightly below market. If they countered above market, we would have walked.

If the seller knows you are making a million a year, it's a fact that balances against their desire to sell. While their desire to sell could be greater and they might capitulate anyway, they may very well hold faster to their asking price because they know you're able to afford it.

If Warren Buffet makes an offer on my house and tries to negotiate me down on price, I'll hold out and even sell to someone else who also negotiates down on price, but isn't him; all things being equal, I'd rather feel like I helped someone out than was taken advantage of. This is among the reasons people with wealth will often use intermediaries to close deals.

> I'm not denying these practices exist, but its always sleazy businesses that engage in them and most consumers end up moving on once they catch wise. Grocery store vs. Amazon for example.

Amazon owns woot.com, which allows them precisely to engage in price discrimination and the benefits of time-scoped deals while simultaneously offering a more "supercenter" experience on their main site. They capture both sides of the market---people who like to feel they are getting a special deal, and people who prefer the simplicity of one price.

(Besides, since Amazon brokers trades between buyers and sellers who are selling at different prices, they don't even practice "one product, one price" on their main site, really. And they have Amazon Prime, which is a loyalty program).

Re:Ecuador Says It Still Backs Assange, but WikiLeaks Says I... by neaden on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @02:42PM (#12737417)
Are you opposed to the recent Cuba/US negotiations that certainly would have failed if they were conducted in the open?