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Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by Yetanfou on Monday October 17, 2016 @11:54AM (#12726177)
Sweden has hunted Assange for 6 years for the 'crime' of being promiscuous with the wrong women. Oh, and he did not use a condom, but the 'rape victim' still did not mind having dinner with him afterwards. Only later when those two women who thought they'd scored a celebrity found out he'd been rather generous in dealing out his celebrity amongst those who offered him hospitality did they come with a claim of rape. Should he have used a condom? Yes, if only to protect both himself as well as his partners from whatever they managed to share amongst them. Does this constitute rape? Given the fact that they'd had intercourse several times before during the same night I don't the claim would stick.

Meanwhile 5 rape suspects were released without even being indicted because the rape victim - a 33yo physically handicapped (wheelchair-bound) Swedish woman - did not 'resist enough' for the allegations of rape to stick, according to the prosecutor [1]. Might it be so that a physically handicapped woman has problems 'resisting enough' due to her handicap and the position in which she was placed - in the toilet, out of reach of her wheelchair?

So, Sweden, please define rape for us uninformed bystanders. If forcing a handicapped woman to have sexual intercourse with up to 6 men (5 of whom were arrested, the sixth was never taken) is NOT rape but having more sex with a willing partner who was fine with having sex before IS rape we do need some guidance to know what is right and what is wrong there. It would be good to know given that I live in Sweden, maybe I'm guilty of something I did not realise before?

[1] https://www.google.se/search?q=rape+gotland+wheelchair (pick your source)

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by sctb on Monday October 17, 2016 @04:52PM (#12729613)
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12725653 and marked it off-topic.
Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by slg on Monday October 17, 2016 @12:47PM (#12726712)
>the 'rape victim' still did not mind having dinner with him afterwards

>the fact that they'd had intercourse several times before

I don't care what you think about this specific case, but statements like these show a great deal of ignorance about how most sex crimes happen and the relationship between the abuser and the victim.

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by lakmear on Monday October 17, 2016 @01:49PM (#12727331)
By that logic, a guy who had completely consensual sex may be unable prove it wasn't rape. There has to be a limit on what you can call rape or men will have no protection from false accusations.
Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by dragonwriter on Monday October 17, 2016 @01:57PM (#12727434)
Er, if you have a justice system that requires proof of innocence rather than proof of guilt, that is a bigger problem than any line-drawing around the boundaries of rape.

If there is not consent (or capacity for consent) at the time of the act, it's rape. In any reasonable justice system, the proof problems that come up, in certain situations, with that clear definition weigh in favor of the accused, since they make it difficult to prove that sex occurred without consent.

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by ghurtado on Monday October 17, 2016 @03:47PM (#12728886)
I don't see anything ignorant about expecting that the burden of proof in cases of rape requires more evidence than a statement from the victim, specially when all the circumstantial evidence goes directly against said statement.

"Rape can happen under complex emotional mechanics, therefore the word of the victim is sufficient to prosecute and jail the accused, as this overrides any other objective evidence" isn't a position likely to be enshrined into law any time soon.

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by slg on Monday October 17, 2016 @05:31PM (#12729968)
You are disagreeing with an argument I didn't make. The burden of proof is always on the accuser/state. That is what makes sex crimes so hard to prosecute. I never made any statement regarding that or suggested anything should change with sex crimes compared to other crimes.

I simply stated that the ideas someone can't be raped if they have previously had consensual sex with their rapist or that they must immediately end contact with their rapist are ignorant ideas.

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by ghurtado on Monday October 17, 2016 @06:09PM (#12730248)
> You are disagreeing with an argument I didn't make.

> I simply stated that the ideas someone can't be raped if they have previously had consensual sex with their rapist or that they must immediately end contact with their rapist are ignorant ideas.

Agreed. Luckily the commenter you were calling "ignorant" never claimed anything of the sort, so I'm afraid you're the one that started this particular straw man (perhaps unknowingly)

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by slg on Monday October 17, 2016 @06:32PM (#12730420)
>Sweden has hunted Assange for 6 years for the 'crime' of being promiscuous with the wrong women. Oh, and he did not use a condom, but the 'rape victim' still did not mind having dinner with him afterwards... Given the fact that they'd had intercourse several times before during the same night I don't the claim would stick.

I mean OP put both crime and rape victim in scare quotes and their first argument as to why is she "still did not mind having dinner with him afterwards." They then say that they don't think the claims would stick because "they'd had intercourse several times before during the same night". I'm not sure how to take those statements any other way. Am I missing something here?

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by ghurtado on Monday October 17, 2016 @10:50PM (#12731649)
I definitely see your point about the wording, and I'm also not in love with it.

I guess I was approaching the situation from the known information of the case, which is fairly clearly a very crude attempt at finding a crime of rape where one doesn't exist (even the supposed "victims" deny there was rape).

I could see how the parent's wording is off putting, but notice how I've also put "victims" in between quotes. None of the evidence of the case points at them being victims. Therefore, there is no evidence (not just strong evidence, but any evidence) that a crime was committed. I think that's a fair use for quotes, and no more or less dishonest than calling them "scare quotes". If an accusation of a crime stands on a very flimsy foundation of made up evidence, I think it is fair to call it a "crime".

Maybe if you read the comment as coming from someone who has ill feelings against the government of Sweden for doing this (rather than any ill will against the alleged victims) you will see that it's not so cut and clear that the parent is a misogynist or ignorant with regards to rape or whatever other first impression you may have received from the comment.

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by Yetanfou on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @06:38PM (#12739351)
Right on the mark. Those 'scare quotes' do not indicate misogyny but lack of substance to the accusations. Would a true misogynist care about the discrepancy between Swedish justice against Assange and that against the 33yo woman on Gotland who got gang-raped?

Don't be too quick in assuming misogyny when confronted with a differing opinion in a discussion related to a rape accusation. The same goes for any of the other 'touchy' subjects like racism, (gender) discrimination and whatever-phobia. The world is not black and white so it is not sensible to claim than anyone who does not support your version of 'the truth' (between quotes because 'truth' is sometimes hard to define, what is 'true' for the one can be 'false' for the other on equally valid grounds) is wholly opposed to whatever position you hold related to that subject - gender, religion, race, etc.

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by angry-hacker on Monday October 17, 2016 @03:57PM (#12729017)
Well, most of the countries you're not guilty before proven... Right now I'm not sure. Because of all these stupid false allegations the meaning of raping someone has devalued in the eyes of society.
Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by speeder on Monday October 17, 2016 @12:15PM (#12726403)
You also forgot the part where Assange victims said they DON'T want him prosecuted, and only asked the government for help because they wanted a STD test.

So basically Assange is prosecuted for rape against two women that claim they weren't actually raped, while doesn't prosecute rape of someone that DID complained of being raped.

This cross outright into the non-sensical law land.

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by abjorn on Monday October 17, 2016 @12:18PM (#12726446)
Not that I believe the rape allegations against him are necessarily true, but just because she consented before doesn't mean she consented then. That's a dangerous assumption to make in any situation.
Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by imartin2k on Monday October 17, 2016 @12:19PM (#12726455)
These cases are not related to each other, so skip the Whataboutism.

While this Assange case for sure is controversial, Sweden has done more for the rights of women than most other countries. And that is a good thing, not a bad thing.

Whether Assange is guilty of anything or not, I have no idea. But you don't have that, either.

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by monocasa on Monday October 17, 2016 @12:51PM (#12726755)
Whataboutism is papering over your own deficiencies by claiming that others are the same or worse. It's not whataboutism to point out logical inconsistencies in the same legal system.
Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by FireBeyond on Monday October 17, 2016 @02:06PM (#12727544)
Whatever the outcome of the other case, it was at least fully investigated and allowed to go through the justice system.

Something Assange has attempted to thwart at every step, blaming everybody but himself for his predicament.

Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by Yetanfou on Monday October 17, 2016 @04:07PM (#12729147)
It was not fully investigated at all since the prosecutor decided by himself the case was not worth prosecuting. That prosecutor has now been dismissed from the case which leaves an opening for a new procedure to be started. As the suspects - which they still are, no matter what this prosecutor says - have not been prosecuted yet there is still an opportunity for justice to be served. I can only hope this will happen as this case has put a severe dent in the trust people have in the justice department - let alone the trust the rape victim has.
Re:Wikileaks: Julian Assange's internet access 'cut' by phy6 on Monday October 17, 2016 @04:05PM (#12729119)
*A justice system in a land that has an extradition treaty with the US.