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Re:Feds Walk into a Building and Demand Everyone's Fingerpri... by eternalban on Sunday October 16, 2016 @10:22PM (#12722327)
> The irony is that by blaming the system instead of acknowledging that the outcomes we see are the result of democracy working exactly as intended you are actually contributing to the problem, which is that everyone retreats into their echo chamber and spends their energy vilifying anyone who doesn't agree with them instead of working constructively to figure out how all 7+ billion of us are going to get along on this little planet.

But I am not blaming the system.

I pointed out bad faith actors in the system, which in my view, are contributing to the dysfunction of the process, and have poisoned political discourse in this nation. I don't remember the exact date when we crossed the threshold but do remember noting a somewhat abrupt introduction of extreme vulgarity and uncivility into televised political shows at some point in 90s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecommunications_Act_of_1996

The various POVs you mention are noted and point well taken. But were not these strains of thought present in the 80s, 70s, and before? I haven't watched TV in decades, but the few times I am exposed to it by force (visits to family, public spaces, etc.) my skin literally crawls, regardless of which point of view is being voiced. It's like the planet of the vulgarian apes. Don't you think the public that is exposed to this /garbage/ day after day has been conditioned to act in the same manner?

> Likewise, there is a substantial contingent of people who are scared witless at the thought of terrorism, and think that it's worth trading in the odd civil right to insure that terrorists are not "free" to plot our destruction unmolested.

This is the only POV that I find unacceptable. This view -- propagated from on high from -- is the factual "blaming the system". The clear subtext of this manufactured view is that our system is fragile and inadequate in face of enemies and needs corrective measures that alter the very nature of our system. Yes, the people were scared, but it was not the people who pulled the Patriot Act out of God knows where and passed it without even an attempt at deliberation.

They could have been offered other remedies, but were not. They could have been reassured by national leadership that we can prevail without disfiguring our national character, but were not.

Americans torturing and torture shows on cable TV.

Disgraceful.

Re:Feds Walk into a Building and Demand Everyone's Fingerpri... by oldmanjay on Monday October 17, 2016 @01:57AM (#12722945)
Wagging fingers is one of the more boring forms of political discourse, and no matter how unacceptable you find an opinion, you will never finger-wag someone out of one.
Re:Feds Walk into a Building and Demand Everyone's Fingerpri... by countingteeth on Monday October 17, 2016 @03:23AM (#12723205)
You are wagging fingers also, and therefore boring.

Honestly, I've been finger-wagged out of an opinion or two, so "never" is too strong. Frankly, I challenge you to name any form of "political discourse" that regularly changes opinions. In my experience political discourse in general rarely accomplishes anything other than preach to the choir and cause opponents to dig in.

Re:Feds Walk into a Building and Demand Everyone's Fingerpri... by oldmanjay on Monday October 17, 2016 @10:29AM (#12725298)
I'm not telling you what to do, which is a necessary component of the finger wagging. I do enjoy when people accuse me of the actions they are taking, though. Very human. Very, very human.
Re:Feds Walk into a Building and Demand Everyone's Fingerpri... by countingteeth on Tuesday October 18, 2016 @12:22AM (#12732075)
In my language, finger wagging is scolding someone, for what they've done (or failed to do). It's not telling them what to do.

You were certainly wagging your finger at a fingerwagger.

Re:Feds Walk into a Building and Demand Everyone's Fingerpri... by lisper on Monday October 17, 2016 @02:09AM (#12722972)
> But I am not blaming the system.

You wrote:

> The 'actual problem' seems to be in the selection/delegation process.

That sounds like blaming the system to me.

Re:Feds Walk into a Building and Demand Everyone's Fingerpri... by eternalban on Monday October 17, 2016 @02:57AM (#12723121)
Problem "in", not problem "is".

(In case you're interested, Pierre Sallinger touches on the post '72 role of the media in the selection process in his 1995 c-span interview: https://www.c-span.org/video/?67372-1/ps-memoir [edit: jump to 44:56])

Re:Feds Walk into a Building and Demand Everyone's Fingerpri... by lisper on Monday October 17, 2016 @03:46AM (#12723287)
That seems like splitting a pretty fine hair to me.
Re:Feds Walk into a Building and Demand Everyone's Fingerpri... by ChoHag on Monday October 17, 2016 @07:34AM (#12724123)
As a system administrator: No. It's not. A broken system and a system being misused are two entirely different things. It could be suggested that a system is broken if it can be misused and indeed an ideal system will be incapable of misuse. But I've never met one yet.