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Re:Poll on macOS 10.12 is broken by newscracker on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @09:38AM (#12684230)
There seems to be a general lack of interest in maintaining the underlying UNIX system well at Apple, for various reasons. It's frustrating that a large company with a lot of money is unable to handle OS projects with the seriousness and attention to detail that they deserve. Wanting to release a new version of the OS every year with some shiny new features for the end user should be balanced with stabilizing and improving things under the hood. I'm deeply disappointed that such focus on the Mac and macOS is lacking.
Re:Poll on macOS 10.12 is broken by pjmlp on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @10:30AM (#12684663)
UNIX never matter to the Apple culture.

They were never committed to it with A/UX and for NeXT it was just a way to bring in software from the blooming UNIX workstations market.

I remember back in the early 2003, they came to CERN trying to promote the idea of using Mac OS X for research because of the UNIX compatibility.

In both cases, NeXT (aka Apple) needed the developers to help grow their diminishing market.

Now they have the upper hand and don't need UNIX compatibility more than they already offer, and the non-UNIX layers is what matters.

They are not alone, just look at Google efforts with Brillo, Fuchsia and removal of insecure UNIX V APIs in Android.

Re:Poll on macOS 10.12 is broken by kazinator on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @10:49AM (#12684884)
I think Jobs did believe in Unix, as a way to have a system that doesn't fall down all the time; just he wasn't perhaps on board with all the crusty bits that come with Unix.
Re:Poll on macOS 10.12 is broken by valarauca1 on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @11:50AM (#12685513)
More likely it was that Mach was a fully functional free OS. Next only had to slap a GUI toolkit on top of to have their own OS. Also as it was a teaching OS, so it was easy to find reference material + developers.

Microsoft more or less did the same thing with OpenBSD and NT kernel. Several kernel sections started out as BSD code (the networking stack for example).

Don't forget Jobs attempted to steal NeXt's fork of the GCC with Obj-C extensions. The FSF had to sue NeXt to get them to release their modifications.

Stealing Free Software is cheap from a business perspective.

Re:Poll on macOS 10.12 is broken by sedachv on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @02:19PM (#12687058)
> Don't forget Jobs attempted to steal NeXt's fork of the GCC with Obj-C extensions. The FSF had to sue NeXt to get them to release their modifications.

Actually there was no lawsuit. NeXT released the patches after a warning: http://ebb.org/bkuhn/talks/LinuxTag-2011/compliance.html

> Stealing Free Software is cheap from a business perspective.

This is why I recommend everyone use AGPLv3 whenever possible (and consider changing the license on your old Free Software - you can do this if all of the contributors consent). Apple has been removing all GPLv3 software from Mac OS X over the past several years because v3 is incompatible with their goals of totalitarian computing: http://meta.ath0.com/2012/02/05/apples-great-gpl-purge/

Re:Poll on macOS 10.12 is broken by pjmlp on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @02:28PM (#12687153)
Google is on the same path.

Brillo and Fuchsia have almost no GPL or LGPL licensed code.

They also are in the process of kicking GCC out of the Android NDK. Only a few feature parity issues are preventing it for the time being.

Re:Poll on macOS 10.12 is broken by pjmlp on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @12:41PM (#12686023)
I don't think so.

When Apple tried A/UX he was on his way out and it was never an attempt to replace Mac OS.

Regarding NeXT, the company was targeting the new workstation market, which was moving away from Lisp and Ada Machines into UNIX ones, thanks to UNIX code being freely available, as AT&T was not allowed to charge for it.

NeXT main competition were Sun and Irix workstations, so a certain compatibility with UNIX was desired.

However the whole Mach stack was very UNIX-unlike. Many naysayers regarding Objective-C use for systems programming aren't aware that even NextSTEP drivers were written in it.

So it was all about business, Steve was always keen on how Xerox PARC OSes used to work.

Re:Poll on macOS 10.12 is broken by gpderetta on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @08:11PM (#12689512)
For what is worth, Unix and Mach have a long tradition of being welded together, starting with OSF/1 and derivatives.
Re:Poll on macOS 10.12 is broken by pjmlp on Wednesday October 12, 2016 @02:51AM (#12690857)
Which was created with the purpose to move away from AT&T design.
Re:Poll on macOS 10.12 is broken by kazinator on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @07:03PM (#12689229)
We can probably think of A/UX as Apple's chess piece, positioned against Microsoft's chess piece of the same type: Xenix.
Re:Poll on macOS 10.12 is broken by matt4077 on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @10:47AM (#12684864)
I feel the developer experience has improved substantial, mostly because homebrew is simply amazingly stable and up-to-date. I don't care about the build-in ruby or git because it's replaced immediately anyway. I guess the experience is different for people doing system-level C.
Re:Poll on macOS 10.12 is broken by rleigh on Wednesday October 12, 2016 @06:18AM (#12691643)
But this is a /workaround/ for the base system being poorly maintained. Apple provide Ruby, Python, and a whole host of other languages and tools on the base system. There's little excuse for them not to keep it up to date and functional. The default "experience" is miserable.
Re:Poll on macOS 10.12 is broken by theanswerer on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @09:47AM (#12684298)
Apple clearly doesn't care about the Mac platform and derives only a sliver of revenue from it compared to iPhone, music and app sales. Apple believes that Mac exists solely as platform to develop iOS apps.
Re:Poll on macOS 10.12 is broken by pjmlp on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @10:32AM (#12684693)
They care enough for those of us that see Mac OS X, as an operating system using Swift, Objective-C, Cocoa, drivers written in C++, Metal, playgrounds and sandboxed applications, with little or no interest to UNIX PDP-11 CLI compatibility.
Re:Poll on macOS 10.12 is broken by newscracker on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @10:18AM (#12684549)
I doubt any "additional" money spent on macOS/OS X would make a huge difference to Apple's bottom line. But it would show that Apple is serious about the platform. Money itself is not the issue, but a serious lack of management attention right from the top. Craig Federighi is a nice and funny communicator who knows software (at a deep enough level usually not expected in large corporations for someone in his position), but something is clearly missing in the entire pipeline.
Re:Poll on macOS 10.12 is broken by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @10:27AM (#12684637)
> I doubt any "additional" money spent on macOS/OS X would make a huge difference to Apple's bottom line. But it would show that Apple is serious about the platform.

Why should they care about it as a platform if its impact is negligible. Wouldn't one prefer to focus on the next non-negligible thing?

Re:Poll on macOS 10.12 is broken by newscracker on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @10:44AM (#12684829)
> Why should they care about it as a platform if its impact is negligible. Wouldn't one prefer to focus on the next non-negligible thing?

Apple should care for multiple reasons:

- reputation matters

- not acting like it's abandoned its roots is a positive in image building

- not being shamed repeatedly, with good reason, about its attitude as well as seeming ineptitude

- recruiting talent becomes easier since it's likely more people may see Apple as a decent place to work at (considering this alone in this context, for the sake of simplicity)

- making the platform used to build apps for its best selling platform a lot better ought to be a no-brainer

- …and many more that don't occur to me right now

As I said, I don't think Apple would have to blow a significant amount of money with its finances and budgets to make this better. In my view, with the reasons stated above, Apple has more to lose with this lackadaisical attitude toward macOS/OS X and the Mac platform than just saving some money because the revenue potential is lower. I can't imagine how it'd be to be in a company that gets shamed so much and doesn't seem to want to respond or do much to alleviate matters.

On a related note, Xcode also gets a lot of flak, despite the fact that it's what helps Apple make money from apps. I repeat, something seems seriously missing.

Re:Poll on macOS 10.12 is broken by gaius on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @12:30PM (#12685920)
If apps and content are developed on OSX then they will be first-class citizens on iOS devices for end users. If Apple gives up on OSX to milk revenue from iOS, what happens when the hottest new apps and content are second-class citizens on iOS devices because everyone is developing/authoring on something else?

Apple's long term strategy absolutely relies on OSX, if current management are taking a short term view, well it wouldn't be the first time. Only there is now now Jobs to come riding to the rescue.

Re:Poll on macOS 10.12 is broken by umanwizard on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @12:19PM (#12685820)
I'd be surprised if this is true. When I was in college (graduated three years ago) a huge share of students had Apple laptops.
Re:Poll on macOS 10.12 is broken by theanswerer on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @12:35PM (#12685969)
And that disproves my point how?

In last quarter Apple had revenue of $42B.

$24B in phone sales compared to $5B in Mac sales. iPad revenue roughly same as Mac sales. Services made up the bulk of the remaining revenue.

This gives you an idea of how unimportant Mac sales are to Apple. They just need Macs for the sake of the iOS ecosystem.

Re:Poll on macOS 10.12 is broken by danieldk on Tuesday October 11, 2016 @02:22PM (#12687087)
No. One of the worst spots to be in for a company is for your revenue to be dependent on one product. 'Services' is dependent on iOS/macOS (App sales, Apple Music, iTunes, etc.). Apple needs the Mac, because it's currently their only other product besides iPhone/iPad that brings in significant revenue (and not just dependent revenue).

I think problems with macOS are often magnified on discussion forums. Partially, because there is a subset of the community that heavily dislikes Apple (for ideological or other reasons). Some macOS updates introduced minor bugs for my daily use, but it is an incredibly smooth ride compared to most other systems (I have used Linux on the desktop from 1994-2007 and still have a Linux machine at home for porting software, etc.).

Re:Poll on macOS 10.12 is broken by newscracker on Wednesday October 12, 2016 @03:45AM (#12691029)
> Apple needs the Mac,...

It's very clear from Apple's action, or rather, inaction and silence, over several years, that Apple doesn't "need" the Mac for any specific reason. It's one of those things that's there because it's there.

If it were true that Apple needs the Mac, we would've seen a lot more attention paid to the platform, not just neglect that has been shamed online repeatedly for a long time. The situation is quite unfortunate, in my view.