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Re:Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence by rdl on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @03:10PM (#12638421)
I wonder what the actual personal consequences are for someone going public that there is an NSL requested. I seriously doubt they'd destroy a major public company with lots of employees/voters/users; fines, maybe, and going after execs, but the Government loses most of its power to threaten things once the act is done and everything is public.

I think you win in the court of public opinion if it's a broad program like this (and IMO clearly unconstitutional). If it's an NSL about, say, an order to specifically target UBL, you probably hang in public opinion. If it's an NSL about, say, finding Snowden, you might be ok. This is an interesting check and balance vs. government overreach.

I'd be a lot more comfortable with someone going public in a live press conference in DC (maybe releasing a key to a file which is pre-distributed), than someone running off to Russia or doing it anonymously, though.

Re:Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence by Bartweiss on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @04:10PM (#12638994)
I've been wondering about this myself.

Apple got a mixed response when they pushed back on the FBI, but certainly not a clearly negative one. Lavabit's rather alarming case earned them substantial respect in the tech circles that learned about the matter.

Certainly whistleblowers have faced immense consequences, but they've been government or military employees engaged in major disclosures. To jail a 'captain of industry' for reporting that the government handed her a sheet of paper would be spectacularly bad optics, attacking a respected private citizen over an intuitively absurd legal mandate.

I suppose the details of the account in question would become important. If the public can be persuaded that you blew up an important investigation, you probably lose all support; we've certainly seen the government disclose a surprising amount of formerly-secret material to turn public opinion against whistleblowers. Even there, though, you could test the gag order by disclosing the fact of an NSL without the content.

If they can't show overwhelming importance, though? If it's just a cartel bust or a leaker or something similarly non-terrorist-y? I'm trying to picture the government bringing the hammer down on Cook or Mayer for going up on stage at a conference and unashamedly violating an NSL. It doesn't seem like a good fight to pick.

Re:Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence by rdl on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @04:27PM (#12639175)
Also committing to a "fuck NSLs, we'll just go public and take it all the way legally" stance upfront might deter NSLs in the first place.
Re:Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence by declan on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @06:58PM (#12640317)
NSLs are likely not the case here with Yahoo (and in fact are not the most significant privacy threat, IMHO). An NSL is a demand from the FBI, not a court order. NSLs also have unique First Amendment vulnerabilities that would help a company choosing to publicize receiving one.

A FISA court order, which can force you to do much more than NSLs, is the more significant operational threat to Internet companies. These court orders typically have "do not disclose" provisions. Willfully violating that court order will almost certainly result in contempt charges.

Re:Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence by malandrew on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @08:16PM (#12640717)
What if you had all your mail scanned or OCRed to remove certain phrases such as "do not disclose" and then the resulting message was delivered to you.

The key here being that you will never have any knowledge of such requirements and therefore cannot act with intent to violate such requirements. Basically, can you eliminate mens rea as an element of the crime of contempt?

The burden is on the deliverer to make sure you receive, open, read and acknowledge the entire message instead of a partial message.

Re:Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence by dragonwriter on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @08:21PM (#12640738)
> What if you had all your mail scanned or OCRed to remove certain phrases such as "do not disclose" and then the resulting message was delivered to you.

Willful blindness is (as one might expect) evidence of willfulness of an act, rather than a way of displaying an absence of willfulness.

Re:Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence by dmix on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @05:23PM (#12639605)
The fact no-one has done this means the consequences must be absolutely devastating. Probably jail time for executives and potential financial collapse.

Probably the only time an executive would go to jail for breaking the law in the US...

Re:Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence by jsmthrowaway on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @05:49PM (#12639809)
I remain unclear on the consequences. I don't think they're tested. 18 USC 2709(c) is what the government cites when they invoke nondisclosure. You win a prize if you find the consequences for violating that statute. Also, NSLs can be upgraded to court orders if the recipient is noncompliant. 18 USC 3511 discusses that:

> the Attorney General may invoke the aid of any district court of the United States within the jurisdiction in which the investigation is carried on or the person or entity resides, carries on business, or may be found, to compel compliance with the request. The court may issue an order requiring the person or entity to comply with the request. Any failure to obey the order of the court may be punished by the court as contempt thereof.

So they can upgrade to a court order and then hold you in contempt if you do not fulfill the terms of the court order. I am not clear if that includes the nondisclosure term. This is the closest I've ever come to identifying "what would legally happen if someone published an NSL?" Honestly, and I'm not extremely comfortable saying this and please do not get ideas, after a lot of research I don't think there is a federal punishment defined in legislation for doing it.

Usually laws have a punishment immediately after them. As in, section A is what's illegal, section B is how to punish violations of section A. 18 USC 2709 and 18 USC 3511 don't have that, so I honestly have no idea what would happen, and I half wonder if the federal government doesn't either.

(IANAL, etc)

Re:Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence by generj on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @06:23PM (#12640071)
It's entirely possible a highly-paid legal counsel like Apple or Google has finds out the emperor is wearing no clothes and NSL's are unenforceable.

The question is: who is willing to find out? There's all kinds of nasty stuff the gov can do to you personally for trying to fight an NSL - loss of gov contracts, detention at custom and border control, no-fly list, etc.

Re:Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence by dbg31415 on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @08:44PM (#12640835)
People with success tend to be afraid of losing it. They know it's mostly all luck and lightening probably won't strike twice.
Re:Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence by mikestew on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @03:25PM (#12638544)
It's an experiment that I would personally be willing to try were I a high-visibility C-level exec. Been to jail, not that bad, mostly just boring; and certainly the jail that CEO me goes to would likely be better than the jail the real me has been a guest of. But the kind of person willing to tweak the nose of the government doesn't usually get to be C-anything.

As you point out, best to wisely pick your battle as you'll want public opinion behind you. And remember that as popular as she is, Martha Stewart still went to jail.

Re:Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence by compiler-guy on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @04:22PM (#12639128)
Chelsea Manning, who is imprisoned over something similar to this case, may have a different opinion on how nice jail is than you.
Re:Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence by envy2 on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @05:16PM (#12639549)
Chelsea Manning was imprisoned over something very different: she was a US soldier, not a private citizen, and she made public internal government documents, not a letter explicitly addressed to her.

Different standards do (and, IMO, should) apply to leakers who are government employees or members of the armed forces with a security clearance and to private citizens who are not 'leaking' something but rather sharing something they did not explicitly and voluntarily (through a contract or NDA) agree not to disclose.

Re:Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence by wfo on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @11:53AM (#12644936)
And yet the non-military CJ system can be brutal and harsh. I'd imagine it's certainly possible the first person to disobey a NSL might be made an example of, especially depending on who is in charge of the executive branch at the time. You could be locked in solitary for years until you lose your mind. You could be assigned to prisons in such a way the authorities ensure you would be repeatedly beaten and raped. You could be indefinitely detained without trial or attorney -- the crime is national security related, after all. There is a horde of horribly nasty things that could be done to you even if you aren't military or security clearance. It's worse for the military, but it's bad enough for the rest of us.

Perhaps unlikely, but certainly very scary.

Re:Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence by tedunangst on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @06:25PM (#12640087)
Also, if you disclose that you received a NSL, that probably means you at least read the thing you're leaking before leaking it.
Re:Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence by bambax on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @04:45AM (#12642401)
For one, it depends where you come from. If you earn in the neighborhood of $25M a year it's likely you will find jail less comfortable than your home.

Secondly, breaking the law or even challenging NFLs carries a personal risk of going to jail, while silently complying carries almost zero personal risk, and a small risk of damaging the company's reputation if/when someone finds out. If you're not very strongly principled, the choice is really easy to make.

Re:Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence by StanislavPetrov on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @08:07PM (#12640672)
>I wonder what the actual personal consequences are for someone going public that there is an NSL requested.

Under the Patriot Act its 5 years in federal prison for any individual who violates a gag order.

Re:Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence by jsmthrowaway on Wednesday October 05, 2016 @11:44AM (#12644830)
Can you cite that, please? I've actually read laws trying to find the answer to the original question and I came up empty.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12639809

Re:Yahoo scanned customer emails for US intelligence by nicklaf on Tuesday October 04, 2016 @06:44PM (#12640226)
Is it possible that the board would simply remove the CEO in time for the government to have its way with the company, in hope of averting financial Armageddon?