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Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by morganvachon on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @11:11PM (#12595184)
That's a loaded question, and I'm only qualified to answer from my perspective and experience. My biggest gripe with it has always been that it is alpha-quality software, even today, that has a central role in an otherwise mature OS ecosystem. It has been widely adopted (some would say forced or tricked into adoption by a few distros) and therefore all the major Linux distributions are now running at an alpha level while its creators try to figure out exactly what they want it to be. That was the state of Linux in the late 90s, a state that it overcame during the 2000s, but now it's regressing again.

First it was "just an init to replace SysV", something I could get behind, and back in 2012 or so I was actually excited about it. Then it started growing, replacing individual components of GNU/Linux with a monolithic mega-app that has more in common with Windows NT based OSes than with anything UNIX-like. Gone is the philosophy of "do one thing and do it well", replaced with "do everything no matter the quality of the results".

I've always been a Slackware user since I started messing with Linux in the late 90s, and these days I find it getting faster and better while mainstream Linux distros slow down and grow more and more bugs. One of my benchmark systems for observing the growing bloat of modern OSes is an Atom based netbook from around 2010. It shipped with Windows 7 Starter, which it ran acceptably but not great.

Recently I tested Windows 10, Slackware 14.2, Ubuntu 14.04, Ubuntu 16.04, Debian unstable, OpenBSD, and Elementary OS Loki on it. Slackware was the fastest OS on it by a wide margin, followed by OpenBSD, then Debian, Ubuntu 14.04, Elementary, Windows, and Ubuntu 16.04 dead last. Guess which of those (not counting Windows) do not have systemd? Yep, Slackware and OpenBSD. Maybe it's a coincidence, but given how Ubuntu 16.04 on my modern workstation gets progressively slower with each systemd update, whereas Slackware on the same machine continues to chug along with no issues, that's telling.

All of that said, systemd was and maybe still is a good idea, if only they can stop trying to reinvent the wheel and instead fix the spokes they broke along the way. I can't say I'm happy about eroding the UNIX philosophy from Linux, but if systemd is the future of Linux then it damn well needs to be a stable future.

Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by pjmlp on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @02:40AM (#12595843)
The irony of the eroding the UNIX philosophy from Linux is that most real UNIX systems, meaning AIX, HP-UX, Solaris, NeXTSTep (cough macOS), Tru64,... do have something similar to systemd.

Sometimes shouting "UNIX philosophy" in GNU/Linux forums reminds me of emigrants that keep traditions of their home countries alive that are long out of fashion back home.

Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by Annatar on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @06:15AM (#12596563)
The sarcastic irony is, Solaris engineers implemented a fully functional systemd(8) long before systemd(8) by designing and implementing SMF, which went on to break world records with startup and shutdown speed, on what is now an ancient AMD Opteron system (I think it was either v20z or a v40z). I wanted to include the reference to the slashdot's then-article, but try as I might, I can't find it any more.
Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by digi_owl on Monday October 03, 2016 @11:44PM (#12633183)
XML and CDDL, yuck and yuck.

Go drool some more over Cantrill, will you?

Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by qwertyuiop924 on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @07:17AM (#12596812)
No, you're actually wrong, IIRC.

The other systems still fundamentally do init's job, as well as managing services. They DON'T do everything, including:

-replace cron

-handle dynamic device files (udev's job)

-set the hostname

-replace syslog

-replace inetd

-automount

-anything I forgot

Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by NzNz on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @07:20AM (#12596819)
AIX, HP-UX, Solaris and NeXTStep were not written by the original authors of Unix and its philosophy. Linux has always been closer to the philosophy than many of these, actually. So much so that it has imported concepts from the successor of Unix, Plan9. Linux's procfs which exposes sysinfo as files within the filesystem is a concept taken from Plan9, which was the OS people like Ken Thompson and Rob Pike envisioned as the future of OSes and replacement for Unix.

Those "traditions" you're speaking of not only are not outdated, but they never were fully realized to their ideal outside of Plan9, which attempted to make everything accessible through file APIs.

The suckless crowds are not about reproducing the original Unix. They are about carrying the torch of that philosophy, and the original unix was just the beginning, not an end in itself. Here's an example of software from suckless that follows Plan9 : http://tools.suckless.org/ii/

Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by pjmlp on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @07:31AM (#12596871)
Actually the only thing I find positive about Plan9 is that it gave birth to Inferno and Limbo, both of which don't have much to do with UNIX philosophy.

Those that worship Plan 9 as the UNIX culture, should actually be aware what the authors think about UNIX.

"I didn't use Unix at all, really, from about 1990 until 2002, when I joined Google. (I worked entirely on Plan 9, which I still believe does a pretty good job of solving those fundamental problems.) I was surprised when I came back to Unix how many of even the little things that were annoying in 1990 continue to annoy today. In 1975, when the argument vector had to live in a 512-byte-block, the 6th Edition system would often complain, 'arg list too long'. But today, when machines have gigabytes of memory, I still see that silly message far too often. The argument list is now limited somewhere north of 100K on the Linux machines I use at work, but come on people, dynamic memory allocation is a done deal!

I started keeping a list of these annoyances but it got too long and depressing so I just learned to live with them again. We really are using a 1970s era operating system well past its sell-by date. We get a lot done, and we have fun, but let's face it, the fundamental design of Unix is older than many of the readers of Slashdot, while lots of different, great ideas about computing and networks have been developed in the last 30 years. Using Unix is the computing equivalent of listening only to music by David Cassidy. "

https://interviews.slashdot.org/story/04/10/18/1153211/rob-p...

Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by wruza on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @03:16AM (#12595963)
For me at least, unix philosophy is Thompson, Ritchie, Raymond, Stevens, etc., not some obscure commercial things.
Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by pjmlp on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @03:58AM (#12596097)
Which validates my point of long gone traditions.

The world isn't a PDP-11 anymore.

Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by throwaway2048 on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @02:46AM (#12595869)
commercial unixes haven't been relevant for decades. Unix is linux these days.
Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by mort96 on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @02:55AM (#12595899)
How about the second largest desktop OS in the world, OS X (or now macOS)? That's BSD.
Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by riffraff on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @03:07AM (#12595937)
OSX is actually a certified UNIX http://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/
Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by SSLy on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @06:35AM (#12596639)
and systemd was modelled partially after its launchd
Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by Tom4hawk on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @10:06AM (#12597670)
Mac OS X is not BSD: https://wiki.freebsd.org/Myths
Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by pjmlp on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @03:57AM (#12596094)
Actually not from the point of view of our enterprise customers, the same that still happily pay for mainframes.
Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by TazeTSchnitzel on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @08:08AM (#12597024)
I don't believe Mac OS X/OS X/macOS's launchd is as complicated as systemd.
Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by vacri on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @02:34AM (#12595821)
Ubuntu 16.04 is not meant for lightweight machines - for example, the Unity desktop assumes you have 3D acceleration (which sucks for using in a VM). It's not systemd that makes your atom netbook slow (well, assuming you're using Unity...)

Re: systemd itself, I could care less about the bells and whistles, but every time I go back to fiddle with a sysv init script, I yearn for either of upstart or systemd...

Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by hd4 on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @03:17AM (#12595967)
Ubuntu actually has a low graphics mode so that it can be used in VMs

https://insights.ubuntu.com/2016/09/19/low-graphics-mode-in-...

Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by vacri on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @03:36AM (#12596029)
I stand corrected. Maybe I'm thinking of 14.04?
Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by morganvachon on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @08:33AM (#12597143)
Nope, Xfce on all the Linux distros on that machine, except for Elementary. I was surprised to find that Elementary's Pantheon was faster than Xfce on Ubuntu 16.04.

Besides, it wasn't a test of DE performance alone, it was a combination of factors including boot time, script run time, video encode/decode, build from source time, and so on. Yes, DE performance was also a metric, and for fun I did load Unity on both 14.04 and 16.04 just to see what would happen. If I were basing it on DE performance alone and used the default DE for each distro, both Ubuntu versions would be the slowest by far.

Also, 3D acceleration was not an issue, the Intel video hardware in that machine is fully accelerated in Linux and OpenBSD.

Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by johnny22 on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @01:31AM (#12595623)
It didn't just start growing. There was talk of it being the base of the OS (excluding the kernel) since 2012 (as mentioned here http://0pointer.net/blog/projects/systemd-update-3.html).

> We have been working hard to turn systemd into the most viable set of components to build operating systems, appliances and devices from, and make it the best choice for servers, for desktops and for embedded environments alike. I think we have a really convincing set of features now, but we are actively working on making it even better.

I'm pretty sure I saw others posts, but my googlefu is a bit weak.

So, the expansion was in the plan from nearly the beginning (for good or ill)

Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by morganvachon on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @08:24AM (#12597101)
Thanks for that. When I had first heard of it back in 2012, it was right after getting my first Raspberry Pi, and a friend had suggested trying to port systemd to it to improve boot speed. At that time, all I was able to find out about systemd was that it was a faster init. There was nothing I saw back then about the authors wanting to replace all of GNU with it. It was several months later, after the update to systemd broke my Arch installation, that I started reading about how it's growing too fast and rather than focus on code quality and stability, the authors were rushing to make it this huge replacement for GNU.

Since then I've followed its progress, and while my overall impression remains slightly negative, I'm hoping it improves to the point that it is stable and mature enough for daily use. Until then, I happily run Slackware for serious work and Windows 10 for games.

Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by sevensor on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @08:19AM (#12597082)
> There was talk of it being the base of the OS

To be fair, that's pretty much the definition of an init system, innit?

Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by bitwize on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @10:12AM (#12597728)
When Linux came along in the mid-90s, most commercial Unixes had left behind the Unix philosophy, with their own integrated, object oriented desktop environments and sophisticated administration tools. Only Xenix, the engine that powered many an auto shop's rinky-dink five-user database setup, stuck with the model of text terminals and CLI administration with simple tools.

Of course Linux took off, and it sort of reset everything back to stone knives and bearskins. But systemd itself is modelled on Solaris SMF, which is world-class industrial grade service management for large server deployments.

Appeals to the "Unix Philosophy" are the province of reactionary greybeards. Unix philosophy means nothing in the modern era.

Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by joonoro on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @09:35AM (#12597475)
Out of curiosity, what were you using to measure the speed of the various operating systems you mentioned?
Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by morganvachon on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @12:12PM (#12598872)
For CLI stuff (compiling, file operations etc) it's the time command, for video decode/encode it's built into ffmpeg, and for graphical stuff it's mostly subjective. There's honestly not a ton of difference on most of the CLI stuff since the hardware is the same, but it is measurable. As for the DE, let's just say that Xfce under Slackware and OpenBSD is quick and peppy while Xfce under Debian-based distros is anything but. Ubuntu seemed to be the slowest for that test, and Elementary's Pantheon desktop is a mixed bag. I have considered running the Phoronix test suite for a more accurate result.

Also note that I did have to tweak OpenBSD a little to get it on par with Slackware on the desktop, though the stock install is still faster than the more "modern" Linuxen for most tasks.

And for those who wonder why I do all of this: It's a hobby. It's more fun than watching TV on my off days, and it keeps me up to date on the latest goings-on in the OS world.

Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by joonoro on Thursday September 29, 2016 @05:31AM (#12604146)
>There's honestly not a ton of difference on most of the CLI stuff since the hardware is the same, but it is measurable.

This is what I was after. I can't imagine ffmpeg running slower just because of systemd or unity. But yeah, if you're running on a 2010 netbook I wouldn't be surprised if it ran better under Xfce.

Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by qznc on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @02:11AM (#12595754)
I'm an Ubuntu LTS user. Compared to Upstart in 14.04, Systemd is an improvement. ;)
Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by reacweb on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @04:00AM (#12596101)
I am also an Ubuntu LTS user, but more a developer than a system administrator.

I have migrated from 14.04 LTS to 16.04 recently. I am using a NAS drive. After my do-release-upgrade -d, internet was not working anymore because of systemd circularity problem. I had to learn how to create systemd configuration files to describe remote filesystem mounts. It was not easy to find documentation on systemd.

When my computer enters in sleep mode, I can wake it with a press on enter. The next time, it enters in sleep mode, I can not wake it up anymore.

My system used to boot in high resolution. Now, it is using huge fonts that makes boot message impossible to read (25 lines on a 23" screen!). I still do not know how to fix it.

It may not be only the fault of systemd, but migration from 14.04 LTS to 16.04 LTS was a very bad experience for me.

Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by onli on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @04:50AM (#12596265)
Ubuntu upgrades almost always suck, but the upgrade from 14.04 to 16.04 was the worst I ever saw. Nothing worked, my system was broken beyond rescue. Pulseaudio all over again.
Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by vacri on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @02:28AM (#12595802)
Upstart solves the same sysv-init problems that was the motivation for systemd.

And systemd should be an improvement - it started after upstart, and hit production well after upstart :)

Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by B1FF_PSUVM on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @03:02AM (#12595918)
> gets progressively slower with each systemd update

Windows 10 will not be left behind! I mean, ahead!

Microsoft recently pushed out the Anniversary Update, which made at least my Win10 laptop noticeably - as in extra 10 or 15 seconds - slower waking up, and generally more sluggish here and there.

(How convenient, 400 million PCs need an upgrade now. Mwahahaha.)

Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by billforsternz on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @11:22PM (#12595228)
I am puzzled that you had an Atom based netbook from around 2010 that shipped with any kind of Windows 10.
Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by morganvachon on Tuesday September 27, 2016 @11:25PM (#12595235)
That was a typo, it shipped with Windows 7 Starter. Fixed now, thanks! :-)
Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by walter_bishop on Monday October 03, 2016 @07:25PM (#12632212)
> Ubuntu 16.04 on my modern workstation gets progressively slower with each systemd update

I hadn't noticed a noticeable slowdown on my Ubuntu 16.04. I wouldn't even know about the controversy except people keep mentioning it.

[dead]
Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by sctb on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @01:58PM (#12599781)
Please don't post like this here. We ask that you comment civilly and substantively or not at all.
Re:Stali: A new static Linux distribution by morganvachon on Wednesday September 28, 2016 @07:57AM (#12596975)
> WE MUST KILL IT WITH FIRE.

You know, it's funny, I never said that, in fact I said once it matures systemd is actually a good idea.

Perhaps you're projecting a bit?