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Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by GarrisonPrime on Sunday September 25, 2016 @11:58AM (#12575845)
>“If you can get rid of the drivers, those people are out of jobs, but the cost of moving all those goods goes down significantly,” Kaplan said.

This is a major point of automation. Yes, many jobs will be lost. But the prices of many goods will decrease.

The problem is that the current transition threatens to be so rapid as to seriously disrupt society. Perhaps new jobs will eventually be created to make up for those lost to automation (or perhaps not), but they won't be created fast enough to avoid the pain of all the rapid job losses that are coming.

Thankfully, society seems to be coming around to the idea that resistance is futile, and we need to address this problem before it becomes too overwhelming. Personally, I feel one of the most realistic options would be to reduce the standard work week to 4 days and/or 30 hours. People need to be kept busy, or society overall tends to start to crumble around the edges. This would mean people will need to shift their perspective on income, as it will likely be reduced. But this shouldn't be too bad, since all the automation will likely lead to reduced prices all around. Reducing your income by 25% may sound bad, but if practically everything becomes ~20-30% cheaper then you should have essentially the same standard of living, but with fewer working hours. Isn't that what we more or less would all like?

No matter what we wind up doing however, chances are there will be some period of difficult transition. All we can hope to do is make it as short and relatively painless as possible.

Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by fjjrxcbdhx on Sunday September 25, 2016 @12:18PM (#12575932)
This assumption that everything will be cheaper seems a bit disingenuous, because why would these companies want to automate themselves so badly if they weren't going to keep most of the savings as profit?

Even if prices were lowered by a few percent for some goods thanks to cheaper shipping, that's little help when you have no source of income. This will only exacerbate the demand-limited economic slump we're currently experiencing.

Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by afarrell on Sunday September 25, 2016 @12:35PM (#12576018)
This depends on what the barriers to entry for starting a company. If the barriers to entry are low because you can buy self-driving software off-the-shelf for $20,000 then profits will be low. If the barriers to entry are high because the shipping is done by Uber, Google, etc then the profits will be high.

But you are right that it would increase economic inequality.

Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by smokeyj on Sunday September 25, 2016 @02:09PM (#12576484)
How does automated truck drivers unequivocally equal economic inequality? It's theoretically possible that this labor is now freed up to create value for lower income households..

The only reason self driving tech won't be commoditized will be regulatory barriers. You can imagine why entrenched interests would lobby for such.

Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by afarrell on Sunday September 25, 2016 @05:53PM (#12577658)
> It's theoretically possible that this labor is now freed up to create value for lower income households.

If there is competition, then it is true that driving down food/commodities prices will create value for lower income households. But a solid portion of that value will still accrue to the companies running the transit networks using fewer people.

Google has spent years trying to enter the field of self-driving cars. So has Uber. Would not the inherent difficulty they are encountering be a barrier to entry.

I'm not arguing for throwing regulations around willy-nilly. I'm not arguing for regulations at all. I don't know enough to do that with any confidence. I'm just saying that in asking the question "Should we use the force of the state to handle some of the effects of this?", the probability of this increasing income inequality is worthy of serious consideration.

Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by smokeyj on Sunday September 25, 2016 @09:14PM (#12578498)
> I don't know enough to do that with any confidence.

From an epistemological perspective no one does. No one person in this world contains the knowledge needed to manufacture a modern day pencil from scratch.

I don't think the term "income inequality" accurately describes the problem. Someone growing richer doesn't mean someone else had to become poorer. The problem more accurately is that poor people are poor.

Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by nixos on Sunday September 25, 2016 @03:29PM (#12576937)
> If the barriers to entry are low because you can buy self-driving software off-the-shelf for $20,000 then profits will be low

In the beginning. Then due to economy of scale (and government regulations), it will be controlled by two huge companies, owning all IP, making any inroads close to impossible.

Think of when the newest major computer manufacturer was founded.

Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by afarrell on Sunday September 25, 2016 @05:46PM (#12577627)
Well wait no. If it is the case that anyone can buy off-the-shelf software for self-driving cars for a price of $20,000, then a person could just buy a rig, fit it out, develop a relationship with a set of farmers or whatever, and be in business.

How would one of the conglomerates stop that besides competing on price or erecting regulatory barriers?

Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by nixos on Sunday September 25, 2016 @06:52PM (#12577893)
Because he's going to buy it for $20,000. The conglomerate can sell it for $15,000. Who's going to buy it from him.

It's a commodity market (so little "customizing" benefit), crazy IP with feedback loop (Google and Tesla have more street data than anyone else, so they can perfect their algorithms. As their algorithms are better than anyone else's, people buy there hardware, which gives them more data, ad infinitum. Breaking into such a market will be getting harder and harder for that reason), and quite likely some kind of (strict but bureaucratic) safety regulation.

Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by afarrell on Sunday September 25, 2016 @07:02PM (#12577921)
er "it", is the software to run your own autonomous vehicles. It is the hypothetical cost of capital. If it is widely available, then people can sell transit services to other businesses.
Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by stale2002 on Sunday September 25, 2016 @01:04PM (#12576165)
Because of supply and demand and competition.

If companies could squeeze more money out of customers why wouldn't they just do so right now by raising prices?

Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by aisofteng on Sunday September 25, 2016 @09:16PM (#12578513)
Because they would all have to collude to not lower prices, which is illegal. Once one lowers prices - which will happen, because doing so will lead to better business immediately - the rest have to follow.

Such is the nature of competition, and one of the basic reasons why it works. Frankly, I'm surprised it still needs to be explained.

Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by falcolas on Sunday September 25, 2016 @02:06PM (#12576467)
Well, if truck driving were automated, they certainly wouldn't lower then.

Personally, I imagine a lot of companies will use that extra money to buy out, take over, or otherwise eliminate their competition. I doubt the consumer will win.

Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by MarkMc on Sunday September 25, 2016 @02:39PM (#12576655)
If transport companies don't lower prices, won't new companies enter the market and undercut the incumbents?
Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by falcolas on Monday September 26, 2016 @01:36PM (#12583839)
I imagine (some of) the transport companies will lower their prices, it's the McDonalds, Best Buy, Wallmart, and everybody else who has no reason to lower their prices, even though their costs have dropped.

And so long as the cost to get into the industry is high (the up-front cost of a driver is effectively 0, whereas AI will be non-0), and the incumbents have the ability to drop their prices lower than any new startup (thanks to the efficiencies of scale), serious new competition will be rare.

Even considering all that, the cost for shipping something is remarkably low to begin with. $400 for an 40' shipping container worth of goods over 300 miles? Drop the driver from the equation entirely, and that cost would only go down by about $100. As a point of reference, a 40' shipping container full of bananas is worth in excess of $58,000 (1000 boxes per container, 100 bananas per box, $0.58 per banana).

Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by maverick_iceman on Sunday September 25, 2016 @02:22PM (#12576563)
You could have made the same argument about any technology when it was first created. Why didn't that happen?
Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by falcolas on Monday September 26, 2016 @01:17PM (#12583669)
It has happened; just look at how the computer manufacturers consolidated when off-shore production took the bottom out of that market.

Really, anytime a major player has cash on hand, they're going to buy out competition, either through acquisition or buying an equivalent product. When Oracle had liquid assets, they buy Sun. ATT and Verizon consolidated the cell phone market down to ATT and Verizon (and even attempt to merge down one step further). DeBeers buys every diamond producer on the market.

Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by fjjrxcbdhx on Sunday September 25, 2016 @01:10PM (#12576190)
Because they have far greater leverage over labor markets than they do over the market for their product. You don't have to raise prices in a fickle consumer market when you can just make your profits off the much less elastic labor market instead.

They only have to keep prices the same or negligibly lower in order to profit from this proposal.

Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by MarkMc on Sunday September 25, 2016 @02:19PM (#12576545)
I don't think the word 'disingenuous' is appropriate here. You can argue that GarrisonPrime is misguided or incorrect, but there's no need to assume he or she is deliberately withholding information or is not sincere.
Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by harryh on Sunday September 25, 2016 @12:27PM (#12575979)
Companies will want to automate because if they don't they will go out of business because their competitors will.
Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by kalleboo on Sunday September 25, 2016 @12:30PM (#12575987)
For the prime example of this - look at the global shipping market right now. It's going at a loss right now due to the largest shippers building massive ships to bring down the cost/kg/km down bringing overcapacity to an unsustainable level.
Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by fjjrxcbdhx on Sunday September 25, 2016 @12:33PM (#12576004)
Regardless, that's not going to help an economy whose primary problem is a consumer base who can no longer afford to purchase goods in sufficient numbers.
Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by harryh on Sunday September 25, 2016 @12:36PM (#12576027)
I'm skeptical that you've identified the primary problem in the US economy. I would definitely rank two things higher:

1) Challenges that come about due to an aging population

2) An overall slow down in innovation (Cowen's "Great Stagnation" hypothesis)

Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by fjjrxcbdhx on Sunday September 25, 2016 @12:48PM (#12576077)
An unbalanced young-old demographic ratio is indicative of worsening economic conditions for average people. Looking at Japan, they have a population crisis because there's no time to start a family when you have lots of mandatory unpaid overtime. Thankfully we're not quite that far gone yet, but we're headed in that direction and are starting to face similar demographic problems.

Innovation is slowing down because companies are preoccupied with irrationally slashing labor expenses, and R&D tends to be quite expensive so it gets cut significantly. The result is less income for consumers, who in turn buy fewer goods, which ultimately leads to even more cuts for labor.

Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by gaius on Sunday September 25, 2016 @01:23PM (#12576237)
Right, the price of anything is what people are willing to pay, there is minimal correlation with production costs. If the inputs get cheaper profits will go up but the consumer will pay the same.

Do we see massive price drops whenever any company outsources their call centre to India? Nope, the price stays the same and the execs pocket the difference in bonuses.

Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by orangecat on Sunday September 25, 2016 @02:49PM (#12576716)
Right, the price of anything is what people are willing to pay, there is minimal correlation with production costs.

This only works if the seller has monopoly pricing power. Otherwise gas would be $5/gallon all the time.

Do we see massive price drops whenever any company outsources their call centre to India?

Massive, no, but the prices of most things other than housing, health care, and education have in fact been dropping.

Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by brianlweiner on Sunday September 25, 2016 @03:06PM (#12576815)
Or they are in response to internal rising costs; e.g outsource 20 IT positions because health insurance costs for your other 200 employees are increasing 16%.
Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by xapata on Sunday September 25, 2016 @03:51PM (#12577062)
> keep most of the savings as profit

Only to the extent they are resistant to market forces.

Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by cushychicken on Sunday September 25, 2016 @03:28PM (#12576934)
Tons of people are misunderstanding the likely order of events that would decrease shipping costs related to automated long-haul trucking. It'd go like this:

1) One company develops and ships a working autonomous truck. They start selling to shipping companies, or roll their own. 2) The truck client/shipping company starts competing with other shipping companies by offering vastly lower prices on the same shipping. 3) Retailers flock to the automated shipping company because they're vastly cheaper. The first retailer to move and contract with them enjoys a brief competitive advantage over other companies by cutting retail prices slightly and gaining a market advantage. Eventually, other shipping firms pop up to service the other retailers' need for competitively priced trucking. 4) Supply of automated trucking catches up with retailer demand. Retailers are forced to, again, compete directly with one another on price for the same goods, but now the overhead of paying humans to manage shipping is gone.

The doom and gloom comments about overcharging for products is a little ridiculous, IMO. Uber, Apple, Amazon, and Google are at each other's fucking throats for market share in this space. You bet your ass they'd fight tooth and nail with one another on price.

Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by harryh on Sunday September 25, 2016 @12:10PM (#12575891)
Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by xorgar831 on Sunday September 25, 2016 @12:32PM (#12575995)
It might not be that sudden of a change, you may still need someone watching the truck remotely, so one truck driver could be responsible for multiple trucks. So you could have larger fleets with the same workforce too.
Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by ChemicalWarfare on Sunday September 25, 2016 @12:45PM (#12576065)
>>> Yes, many jobs will be lost. But the prices of many goods will decrease.

This remains to be seen. When corporations find ways to cut costs this typically results in higher profits (which there's nothing wrong with that per se) with consumers maybe seeing some cost reduction but not necessarily. Outsourcing of manufacturing jobs is a prime example of that.

Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by gthtjtkt on Sunday September 25, 2016 @12:48PM (#12576078)
> But the prices of many goods will decrease.

Yes, and if our billionaire overlords are feeling generous, perhaps some of those savings will "trickle down" to us peasants.

But probably not...

Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by FussyZeus on Sunday September 25, 2016 @12:06PM (#12575880)
I agree with most everything you've said, the one point that I would contest is:

> Yes, many jobs will be lost. But the prices of many goods will decrease.

If you're talking about what I first thought of, which is things like groceries, housewares, the "every day things" that we all buy and consume without really thinking, I'm not sure that A: The prices on these items could go much lower than they already are and remain profitable, or B: That the producers of said goods (majority MASSIVE corporations with impressive names and product rosters, and the most likely early adopters of this technology) would reduce the prices in accordance with the reduction in cost. The trend now among these companies seems to be to squeeze every last cent out of every last consumer, and if you're proposing to your given board of directors to buy all these new trucks (or change contracts to a company that has) why would you then cut the prices?

I would hope there would be market pressure to do so from at least one good actor, but I don't know how certain that is at all.

Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by criley2 on Sunday September 25, 2016 @12:22PM (#12575951)
>"If you're talking about what I first thought of, which is things like groceries, housewares, the "every day things" that we all buy and consume without really thinking, I'm not sure that A: The prices on these items could go much lower than they already are and remain profitable"

This is the wrong analysis. Price of goods is say, (Supplier Cost)+(Transit to Store)+(Profit Margin)=MSRP

You're saying that MSRP can't go down without hurting Profit Margin.

He's saying, Transit to Store will decrease, allowing MSRP to decrease without affecting Supplier Cost or Profit Margin. (Or Profit Margin can increase while MSRP remains the same)

Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by sverige on Sunday September 25, 2016 @12:25PM (#12575967)
But there's no guarantee that MSRP will go down. More likely that PM will increase.
Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by seunosewa on Sunday September 25, 2016 @12:38PM (#12576036)
Competition all but guarantees it, if there's competition.
Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by falcolas on Sunday September 25, 2016 @02:10PM (#12576489)
Competition will disappear, if companies start having excess liquid assets due to reduced costs. That competition will be lobbied, bought, or acquired right out of the space they were competing in.

Capitalism has a tendency to optimize for a monopoly.

Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by FussyZeus on Sunday September 25, 2016 @12:53PM (#12576102)
That's what I'm getting at. How many people price shop for household items and food? The majority I know have a brand that they buy all the time because of any number of reasons, and if the price doesn't go up but just stays where it is, how likely are they to change?
Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by stale2002 on Sunday September 25, 2016 @01:07PM (#12576179)
They why wouldn't companies just do that right now? If companies can make more money, they would already be doing that by raising prices!
Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by FussyZeus on Sunday September 25, 2016 @01:20PM (#12576224)
If the cost of manufacture and shipping goes down, and the price stays the same, the company makes more money and it isn't immediately obvious to the consumer that anything changed.
Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by harryh on Sunday September 25, 2016 @01:25PM (#12576245)
Historically prices of goods to consumers have dropped dramatically as automation and globalization have reduced the costs of production. Your hypothesis that most of the gains would be captured by producers in the form of increased profits is wrong for almost all consumer goods.
Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by fjjrxcbdhx on Sunday September 25, 2016 @01:47PM (#12576362)
Citation needed. Over the last couple decades processed foodstuffs have been constant in price, but the portions have decreased to cut costs. You can play Russian dolls with old cereal boxes, fitting the newer ones inside the old ones.
Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by harryh on Sunday September 25, 2016 @01:56PM (#12576406)
All you have to do is look around and see how much stuff people have. People have enormous amounts of stuff compared to even 20 or 30 years ago. Bigger houses. More cars. TVs. Computers. Smart Phones. And it's all, relatively speaking, dirt cheap. It's so cheap that storage units are a booming business because people don't have room to store all their stuff in their homes. It's so cheap that burglaries aren't even a thing anymore really because stuff is so cheap it isn't even worth stealing. It's so cheap that Marie Kondo has a best selling book about the challenges of getting rid of your stuff because you simply have too much of it.

Healthcare is expensive. Education is expensive. Land (in some places) is expensive. But man stuff. Stuff is cheap.

Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by brianlweiner on Sunday September 25, 2016 @03:23PM (#12576902)
Between 1960 and 2007, the share of disposable personal income spent on total food by Americans, on average, fell from 17.5 to 9.6 percent

http://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/chart-gallery/detail.a...

Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by sverige on Sunday September 25, 2016 @03:30PM (#12576941)
Correct. While producers of the raw materials (corn, wheat, rice) have seen prices decline when adjusted for inflation, the producers of finished products (Corn Flakes, Wheaties, etc.) have seen prices rise even when adjusted for inflation. But there are only four or five big middlemen, so it's a lot easier for them to capture the increased margins than the tens of thousands of farmers who produce the raw materials.

Similarly, if Apple could reduce its shipping costs to near zero by teleporting the raw materials to Foxconn and then teleporting the finished goods directly to retail outlets, they'd still charge $600 per iPhone, even though they have competition from other phone makers in the form of Android.

The Invisible Hand doesn't always work the way it did in Adam Smith's time.

Re:Self-driving trucks threaten one of America's top blue-co... by Ressuder on Sunday September 25, 2016 @12:46PM (#12576070)
It seems wildly unlikely that no one would try to undercut their competitors, since it's obviously a viable business at current profit margins.