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Re:A Digital Rumor Should Never Lead to a Police Raid by rayiner on Thursday September 22, 2016 @02:01PM (#12558757)
Not great to start an article off with sloppy reasoning:

> If police raided a home based only on an anonymous phone call claiming residents broke the law, it would be clearly unconstitutional.

> Yet EFF has found that police and courts are regularly conducting and approving raids based on the similar type of unreliable digital evidence: Internet Protocol (IP) address information.

When police go after an IP address, it happens after there is evidence linking it to some crime. That makes the situation wholly unlike an anonymous phone call, where there is no evidence a crime has even been committed, and where the identifying information itself is trivial to falsify.

Also, IP addresses give a lot more information than the article implies. Especially these days now that everyone has a home router that probably keeps the same IP address for weeks at a time if not months. Not enough to trigger a police raid, of course (if we want to argue that the police have too low a standard of evidence for initiating a raid, I agree) but it's probably a good lead to go on in the common case.

EDIT: I don't disagree with the rest of the article.

Re:A Digital Rumor Should Never Lead to a Police Raid by danso on Thursday September 22, 2016 @02:13PM (#12558848)
Huh, how is that sloppy reasoning unless you take that out of context? I don't think the EFF is saying that the IP address should never be used as information. It seems they are in perfect agreeance that if there is enough corroborating evidence in addition to the IP information, then the police can consider action.

The EFF's problem is when IP information, as with an anonymous phone call, is used to spur action without enough additional evidence. This is the anecdote they cite in their whitepaper:

http://fusion.net/story/287592/internet-mapping-glitch-kansa...

edit: I responded to someone who clearly pointed out that I misunderstood raynier's argument. The comment was deleted by the time I hit Reply, but here is my reply:

I now agree that I'm at fault for short-shrifting raynier's argument. The whitepaper also includes up on top a story of a place being raided for being a Tor node, which may feel similar to the vagueness of justification that comes from a anonymous phone call, but that's not completely analogous either.

Perhaps the closer analogy would have been SWATting, but I don't think law enforcement supports that as a practice (because it's a result of them getting actively deceived). But I feel that's part of the EFF's overall point: SWATting is clearly a bad thing, whereas the specious reasoning the police sometimes uses to justify a raid based on IP information is not scrutinized enough, because of general tech ignorance.

Re:A Digital Rumor Should Never Lead to a Police Raid by tzs on Thursday September 22, 2016 @02:52PM (#12559202)
> Huh, how is that sloppy reasoning unless you take that out of context? I don't think the EFF is saying that the IP address should never be used as information. It seems they are in perfect agreeance that if there is enough corroborating evidence in addition to the IP information, then the police can consider action.

Shouldn't it depend on the action? An IP address alone would not justify going to the location it was assigned to and arresting, charging, and holding in jail until trial the person(s) found there.

However, if the action is just to get a search warrant to search that location for more evidence, that seems OK to me. With nothing else other than that the IP address was used for some criminal activity, that is pretty good evidence that something related to the crime took place at the location the IP address was assigned to at the time.

Re:A Digital Rumor Should Never Lead to a Police Raid by michaelmrose on Thursday September 22, 2016 @05:07PM (#12560373)
Without first going to the ISP and filing a warrant to get the information regarding whom had that ip address its not even enough for a warrant.

If you've been following some of the recent stupidity police have opted repeatedly to just use some sort of resource to correlate ip address to physical location. This could be because this provides instant gratification or because they lack enough evidence as of yet to even justify THAT warrant.

As an example one such resource used to list a single coord for all unknown addresses in the US. This led to parties at that address dealing with hundreds of cases of unpleasant police contact wherein each officer individually learned that this address wasn't the center for criminality on planet earth. Unfortunately this knowledge didn't percolate upward.

So we aren't dealing with just proxies, tor exit nodes, open networks, many users connecting to the same router and other relatively complex matter. We are dealing with the fact that the police can't even be bothered to confirm with the ISP which customer even had that address at a given time.

In that context, without an initial warrant to gather the most basic of information IP addresses rarely are sufficient for anything at all except further research.

Re:A Digital Rumor Should Never Lead to a Police Raid by syshum on Friday September 23, 2016 @06:51AM (#12563603)
>>> if the action is just to get a search warrant to search that location for more evidence, that seems OK to me

So you believe based on nothing more than your IP address showing up connected to alleged criminal activity, the police should be allowed to batter ram your door at 3am, shoot your dog dead, detonate explosive in your living room, and potentially kill you if you are not fully awake instantly and follow their commands to the letter with perfect accuracy?

Because that is how the US Police force "serves" a search warrant in 2016.

Re:A Digital Rumor Should Never Lead to a Police Raid by dtnewman on Thursday September 22, 2016 @02:14PM (#12558866)
Exactly.

If I'm looking into an internet-related crime, the IP address of the offender is gonna be one of the first things I look at. Can someone falsify it? Yes. But not every offender _will_ falsify it, and so it's useful information to at least look into further, even if IP address by itself shouldn't be adequate evidence for a police raid.

Re:A Digital Rumor Should Never Lead to a Police Raid by the_watcher on Thursday September 22, 2016 @02:45PM (#12559137)
The EFF acknowledges that it's a useful piece of information. They aren't claiming that they should ignore IP addresses.
Re:A Digital Rumor Should Never Lead to a Police Raid by mordocai on Thursday September 22, 2016 @02:02PM (#12558767)
I would argue that ip address is trivial to falsify (though certainly not as trivial as an anonymous phone call).
Re:A Digital Rumor Should Never Lead to a Police Raid by wildmusings on Thursday September 22, 2016 @02:14PM (#12558865)
You can send packets with a fake source IP, but you won't get any response back, so it's of extremely limited utility. If there's traffic back and forth between two IPs going through ISP infrastructure, then it's a safe bet that it's the real deal.
Re:A Digital Rumor Should Never Lead to a Police Raid by cmdrfred on Thursday September 22, 2016 @02:19PM (#12558909)
Or I send you a word document with a macro that installs a reverse tunnel allowing me to push my traffic through your machine.
Re:A Digital Rumor Should Never Lead to a Police Raid by wildmusings on Thursday September 22, 2016 @02:24PM (#12558950)
A search warrant is not a conviction. It simply allows police to collect more evidence.
Re:A Digital Rumor Should Never Lead to a Police Raid by hrehhf on Thursday September 22, 2016 @04:32PM (#12560122)
"collect more evidence" means they take your hardware or other property that they want and you will not get it back for many years. Even if there is no criminal charge. If its computer hardware that was taken, it will be obsolete by the time you get it back.
Re:A Digital Rumor Should Never Lead to a Police Raid by JBiserkov on Thursday September 22, 2016 @07:52PM (#12561330)
> to collect more evidence

..., break down your front door in the middle of the night, shoot your dog or someone from your household, throw in flash grenades... You know simply ruin your life.

Re:A Digital Rumor Should Never Lead to a Police Raid by hx87 on Thursday September 22, 2016 @02:30PM (#12559010)
A search warrant, if executed in certain ways, can be very destructive in itself.
Re:A Digital Rumor Should Never Lead to a Police Raid by tptacek on Thursday September 22, 2016 @03:00PM (#12559275)
That's why we don't issue them without probable cause. Probable cause doesn't mean "proof beyond a reasonable doubt"; if it did, we could dispense with the pesky trials.
Re:A Digital Rumor Should Never Lead to a Police Raid by pmoriarty on Thursday September 22, 2016 @03:25PM (#12559506)
Those pesky trials are dispensed with in something like 90%+ of the cases in the US. The accused just wind up accepting a plea bargain.

Some might argue that that's how it should be, and is an example of the effectiveness of prosecutors, who save the state a lot of trouble and money in trying people who clearly are guilty by their own admission.

Others might call it a travesty of justice, and a mockery of the judicial process and the Constitution of the United States.

Remember the case of Aaron Schwartz.

Re:A Digital Rumor Should Never Lead to a Police Raid by tptacek on Thursday September 22, 2016 @03:34PM (#12559609)
I don't remember probable cause being the issue in that case. Do you remember differently?
Re:A Digital Rumor Should Never Lead to a Police Raid by Zigurd on Thursday September 22, 2016 @05:02PM (#12560347)
The problem in the Aaron Swartz case was that MIT IT employees decided to make a federal case out of a trespass event with zero property damage, and MIT refused to release the names of those people. Subsequently there were many other sins of omission. MIT's senior leadership could have come out against the prosecution, for example. The enablers and excuse-makers disgust me.
Re:A Digital Rumor Should Never Lead to a Police Raid by pmoriarty on Thursday September 22, 2016 @03:57PM (#12559821)
My point was about the lack of trials for the overwhelming majority of defendants in the US. Schwartz's case was a well known example of that.
Re:A Digital Rumor Should Never Lead to a Police Raid by tedunangst on Thursday September 22, 2016 @04:14PM (#12559963)
How so? He didn't take a plea bargain, so it seems like a poor example of defendants taking plea bargains.
Re:A Digital Rumor Should Never Lead to a Police Raid by pmoriarty on Thursday September 22, 2016 @04:21PM (#12560029)
He didn't take a plea bargain because even that was too onerous! He killed himself rather than face either a trial or plea.

It's also a good example as Schwart'z case is widely considered a blatant prosecutorial abuse of power, and symptomatic of a broken judicial system.

Re:A Digital Rumor Should Never Lead to a Police Raid by tptacek on Thursday September 22, 2016 @07:33PM (#12561214)
It's "Swartz", by the way.
Re:A Digital Rumor Should Never Lead to a Police Raid by mordocai on Thursday September 22, 2016 @03:12PM (#12559379)
But we do issue them based on things that unbiased experts would never call probable cause.
Re:A Digital Rumor Should Never Lead to a Police Raid by tptacek on Thursday September 22, 2016 @03:17PM (#12559430)
The word "probability" is right there in the term. I don't think you're going to find a lot of experts that will look a the data on how likely residential IP addresses are to correspond to actions at their addresses and say that the correlation is weak.
Re:A Digital Rumor Should Never Lead to a Police Raid by MertsA on Saturday September 24, 2016 @05:35AM (#12570244)
Yes but there are plenty of cases where police departments aren't even bothering to get the service address from the ISP. Look at the case of the farm in Kansas or the house in Atlanta, The police don't have some independent source testifying that that IP address was in use by a customer at that service address, they're literally just using a geolocation service and raiding wherever the marker lands on the map.

This is the one thing that irks me the most, I don't expect law enforcement to understand the technical side of things but this is just a complete failure to do good old fashioned police work. If a judge was asked to sign a search warrant predicated around the results of a homemade drug test tutorial on Wikihow there's no chance that they would ever consider granting it yet when the same thing is asked in regards to an IP address somehow that passes muster.

At a minimum, police should be required to contact the IANA to figure out which AS an IP belongs to and then contact the AS to figure out what the service address is for the customer. Academia is built around citing any kind of source information, why is that too much to ask for from law enforcement?

Ideally, law enforcement would contact IANA to get the AS, look and verify that that AS was the only one advertising that IP block at the time in question, get the serial number of the modem in question from the AS if the subscriber is using a DOCSIS modem, go to the service address and confirm that the modem is actually present at the service address by doing a disconnect at the road, and then execute the warrant. I get that most of this is pie in the sky wishful thinking, but omitting any of those steps could result in raiding an innocent person needlessly and a lot of those steps could be executed concurrently. Heck, you could also throw in looking for signs that the IP address in question is being used as a Tor node or any other simple proxy and sniffing wireless traffic and trying to correlate the timing of wireless frames to the traffic from the modem in question. You could even do the wireless sniffing at the same time you go out to verify where a modem is on the node.

Even though this would be extra work for law enforcement, wouldn't it be worth it many times over if it just saves a small proportion of innocent citizens from a dangerous police raid?

Re:A Digital Rumor Should Never Lead to a Police Raid by hx87 on Thursday September 22, 2016 @03:15PM (#12559412)
To ensure that that is actually the case, police department should be held financially liable for any damaged caused during searches and seizures.
Re:A Digital Rumor Should Never Lead to a Police Raid by rayiner on Thursday September 22, 2016 @03:42PM (#12559690)
Re:A Digital Rumor Should Never Lead to a Police Raid by tptacek on Thursday September 22, 2016 @03:29PM (#12559551)
That makes sense to me too.
Re:A Digital Rumor Should Never Lead to a Police Raid by freehunter on Thursday September 22, 2016 @03:13PM (#12559383)
Or it's a VPN.
Re:A Digital Rumor Should Never Lead to a Police Raid by gm-conspiracy on Thursday September 22, 2016 @04:11PM (#12559934)
Re:A Digital Rumor Should Never Lead to a Police Raid by rayiner on Thursday September 22, 2016 @04:55PM (#12560303)
No. So?