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Re:Don't Call Yourself A Programmer, And Other Career Advice... by blowski on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @03:33PM (#12551456)
I've got certification - I completed the W3Schools HTML intro.

What would you put in software certification? If you focus on high-end CompSci stuff, it won't be relevant for the 99% who spend their careers building CRUD apps. If you focus on tools, it will be out of date by the time the exam papers are off the printing press.

I agree that there could be industry certification on topics like security and perhaps accessibility. But on everything else, the answers depend on so many factors, they can't be certified in a meaningful way.

Also, some of the best software engineers I know don't have certification because they struggle with exams. The ability to pass an exam doesn't make you a better engineer.

Certification is nice in theory, but in practice would probably lead to worse results.

I call myself a software engineer because it's what managers call me. As long as I don't claim to be able to build a bridge across the River Thames, I don't see the problem.

Re:Don't Call Yourself A Programmer, And Other Career Advice... by verelo on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @03:42PM (#12551548)
I agree with both the parent and this comment; this is why when i read "Software Engineer" i don't consider it to fit in the same bucket as any other "Engineer" in general.

As a "guy who writes code" - call me whatever you want, i could probably give myself a fancy title and get away with it, but I am one of the very successful (When compared to the 99%) people who didn't finish school but managed to get by in the tech industry very comfortably. Life is already great, perhaps I just don't deserve to get everything my way.

Re:Don't Call Yourself A Programmer, And Other Career Advice... by blowski on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @03:50PM (#12551617)
Exactly. If I had been born 100 years earlier (maybe even 25 years earlier) I would have had a low paying menial job. I'm blessed to be in the job that I am, with the pay that I receive, and I am grateful for that every day.

I don't use "software engineer" as an ego thing, but because it communicates better the variety of knowledge I have to people that barely understand how to turn their computer on. I get better pay, my employer is happy, everybody wins.

Re:Don't Call Yourself A Programmer, And Other Career Advice... by duaneb on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @04:19PM (#12551847)
Note—tying this back into the article—a lot of people can write code. It's the person who understand what they're writing, why they're writing it, and why it works that you want to hire, so you would not be well served walking in with JUST the "programmer" title. That's a title many in the world can claim without being worth a hire.
Re:Don't Call Yourself A Programmer, And Other Career Advice... by NikolaeVarius on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @03:38PM (#12551508)
This is absolutely inane. Do you think that the FE/PE only focuses on things that you do every day?

It's to give the world hard proof that you actually UNDERSTAND what is happening and allows you to actually accept responsibility to create things that may actually affect peoples lives. Sure its useless if all you do is work on a react/angular app, but not all software is your standard CRUD app.

Re:Don't Call Yourself A Programmer, And Other Career Advice... by blowski on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @03:45PM (#12551572)
Of course a lot of software is much more complicated than simple CRUD apps. I don't touch them because it would be irresponsible for me to do so.

But there's no clear line where an app stops being CRUD and starts being something more, so there's no clear line where you stop needing a CRUD programmer and start needing a software engineer.

There are some that clearly need certification, and often that is an explicit requirement of the job.

Just don't get too hung up on the job title. Managers want to believe their software is so complicated that they need a software engineer to build it. I'm happy to go along with their delusions if they pay me.

Re:Don't Call Yourself A Programmer, And Other Career Advice... by TheCapn on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @04:33PM (#12551956)
So certification is more than just an exam. Usually it implies receiving accredited post-secondary education and registration with your governing body and going through a mentorship with an existing P.Eng. So in my case I got a B.ASc degree, joined my provincial regulatory body, wrote an ethics/law exam and did a 48 month mentorship. Now, the reason things are treated this way for Professional Engineers is rooted in history. I can't say that I believe all that is entirely necessary for all software engineers but if we're to use the title we follow the rules.

Really, the ideal system is self serving. You create a framework of professionals that self-govern. The Professionals appointed/elected to the governing body are responsible for ensuring the certification is relevant to the profession. I somewhat prefer the mentorship program over testing individuals on knowledge in their domain because your mentor(s) will be a better judge that you're understanding concepts, regulations, rules, and needs better than any exam will test for. Like you said, knowledge that I apply on my career is very different from knowledge you apply in yours.

Another thing that I want to say though is that I don't feel certification is necessary in software unless you're in a position that carries potential harm to a person's safety/wellbeing. There's a few exceptions to what that entails exactly but that's not really the point of this discussion. Generally speaking, I don't want someone with a layman's understanding of code to be programming things where a person can lose their life due to an oversight. In the same way that Professional Engineers in Civil, Mechanical, etc. use their professional seal to say that "my specs meet all relevant modern standards of safety/design/etc", I want software engineers programming that medical device or safety equipment have the same accountability. Currently there isn't an international recognition of "Software Engineer" as a title to say who is working on that device has been vouched for professionally.

Re:Don't Call Yourself A Programmer, And Other Career Advice... by ExcelsiorDevice on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @04:52PM (#12552119)
> I want software engineers programming that medical device or safety equipment have the same accountability.

There is a difference here in that someone working on a medical device isn't directly offering their services to the public, and the work-product is subject to external testing and oversight.

Re:Don't Call Yourself A Programmer, And Other Career Advice... by clifanatic on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @04:40PM (#12552012)
> some of the best software engineers I know don't have certification because they struggle with exams

Hm... ok, I'm not sure I buy that. How are you defining "best"? I suppose I can accept that there may be a handful of people (worldwide) who can produce amazing software but are somehow unable to memorize and regurgitate facts, in the same sense that there are people in the world who can recite all the digits of pi but can't tie their own shoelaces - but I have a hard time believing that such people are very, very rare.

Re:Don't Call Yourself A Programmer, And Other Career Advice... by dozzie on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @04:20PM (#12551850)
> If you focus on high-end CompSci stuff, it won't be relevant for the 99% who spend their careers building CRUD apps.

Engineer is not a guy putting things together on an assembly line. Engineer needs to understand things that are base for his/her field.

> If you focus on tools, it will be out of date by the time the exam papers are off the printing press.

My tools that are dozen years old work just fine, thank you very much. And they work faster, more transparently, and more reliably than most of modern buzz, if we're at that.