News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by christogreeff on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @03:31PM (#12551433)
It was fascinating how quickly people condemned Microsoft without applying any critical thinking to the issue.

I tend to not read commments on articles anymore, where Microsoft is blamed for something. Reminds me of Slahdot.

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by __jal on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @03:50PM (#12551614)
Well, when a Lenovo rep says: "This system has a Signature Edition of Windows 10 Home installed. It is locked per our agreement with Microsoft," it doesn't exactly require a bomb-throwing partisan to reach the conclusion.
Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by raesene9 on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @04:05PM (#12551746)
But the idea that a random customer service rep. would have information about something that was not a public position of either Lenovo or Microsoft, to me, seemed unlikely.
Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by farcical_tinpot on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @05:35PM (#12552477)
Why wouldn't they? You find out all sorts of things when you work for a company, strangely enough.
Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by raesene9 on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @05:46PM (#12552556)
what and then blow your companies secret position on a response to a user query, knowing that if found it would very likely endanger your continued employment with that company....

You honestly think that's more likely than, someone made a mistake or said something to close a support call???

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by farcical_tinpot on Thursday September 22, 2016 @01:27PM (#12558504)
The statement is there in black and white and it is as crystal clear and unequivocal as you can get.
Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by michaelmrose on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @04:37PM (#12551990)
Ive frequently as a complete peon been privileged to know non public info about the inner workings and policies that was not only non public but that I was forbidden to share with the world as a matter of course. Far from being unusual this is the norm.

We aren't talking about deep dark secrets we are talking about normal privileged company information.

The strange thing in fact is not the employee knowing things not shared with the world its the employee actually disclosing it.

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by raesene9 on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @05:01PM (#12552203)
Well we'd be talking about a secret conspiracy (secret as it's not publicly known) by one of the largest companies in the world (Microsoft) to block installation of Linux on Lenovo's systems.

For the CS rep. to know this, all Lenovo CS rep's would have to know.

And not one of them leaked this juicy info. to the press or reddit or anywhere else....

Just doesn't strike me as a likely course of events.

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by captainmuon on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @04:23PM (#12551872)
What if Lenovo and MS have an agreement what to preinstall on those Laptops - which is very common. Furthermore, Lenovo agreed not to offer ways to install specific other software - no bundled Antivirus CD, no downloadable Lenovo Picks app - and maybe or maybe not - don't prepare customer support to answer "how to install Linux".

The customer rep gets a cryptic sticker on his desk: "Models 1234S, 3333S: Signature Windows Disk ONLY". If a customer calls asking for a restoration media, they get the correct one. If they call asking for Linux, sorry it is not supported according to my sticker.

I'm just making this up of course, but it is not entirely unplausible to me. In fact I find it more plausible then just an accident. Why would a customer rep just make stuff like that up?

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by raesene9 on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @04:35PM (#12551974)
customer support person made stuff up 'cause he wanted to seem to know the answer, so he could close the call and get on with his job?

Or Lenovo and MS have a vast conspiracy to use disk drivers to block linux install..

which is more likely.... you decide.

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by farcical_tinpot on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @05:36PM (#12552488)
They are using disk drivers to restrict what gets installed - not just Linux both other Windows - Windows 7 or future versions of Windows which they want to build hardware obsolescence into and force you into throwing good hardware away.

That's very likely.

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by __jal on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @05:47PM (#12552565)
> Or Lenovo and MS have a vast conspiracy to use disk drivers to block linux install..

That's not a vast conspiracy. That would be a pretty quotidian conspiracy. In fact, it would look a lot like the "Winmodems[1]" that were a thing before (and maybe around?) the turn of the century.

Those existed because they made machines marginally cheaper by emulating the modem in software. Which only worked on Windows and caused much gnashing of teeth back when.

I believe Winmodems came to be solely because of cost savings. I also believe that the fact that it was functional exclusively on Win was a second-order effect that approximately nobody in Redmond took issue with.

...As an aside, I'm going to assume consistency on the part of all those who are being snide about customer support folks, and assume you make a point of never calling customer support (I'm not referring to the parent poster here). After all, you can't trust anything those idiots say, so why would you bother?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Softmodem

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by raesene9 on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @05:59PM (#12552649)
Sure I remember the old winmodem days well, but that was a well known (and very frustrating) problem, which was a stated position of the companies in question.

the customer support bit and wanting to move to the next call is based on my own experience of working in support many years ago, there was a strong temptation to tell the user something to get onto the next call as that was usually your performance metric....

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by __jal on Thursday September 22, 2016 @03:52AM (#12555238)
> but that was a well known (and very frustrating) problem, which was a stated position of the companies in question.

And I'm pretty sure it became well known due to discussions just like this, over time. There was a ton of confusion about it at the time; I'm really not in the mood to attempt to search for 20 year old nerd-grousing, but I remember it from various Linux lists at the time.

And it wouldn't surprise me a bit if some CSR at Best Buy gave bad information about Winmodems, and people like me took the bad information at face value and then got in a discussion about it in some forum...

And the cycle of life is complete.

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by vonmoltke on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @03:57PM (#12551671)
That statement is not by a "Lenovo rep" but by a "Lenovo Product Expert" at Best Buy. If I am not mistaken, those "experts" work for Best Buy, not the company whose products they are experts in.
Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by Jtsummers on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @04:28PM (#12551921)
Sometimes they do work for the company whose products they are "experts" in. Best Buy gets a "free" employee (the hardware company pays the salary), and the company gets a dedicated person in a store for their products. They're still more Best Buy employee than <company> employee.
Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by plandis on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @04:34PM (#12551970)
Microsofts track record for open solutions over the past 20 years naturally makes a lot of people distrustful.

I'm actually surprised when I see people give Microsoft the benefit of the doubt despite years of building mistrust.

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by Grishnakh on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @05:25PM (#12552395)
I'm not surprised at all, though I personally don't understand the mentality. I see it all the time: "Microsoft has changed their ways! Look, they've released Powershell for Linux!" etc., completely ignoring 30 years of history plus all the very recent user-hostile moves in Windows 10.

I guess a lot of people are just really naïve sheep. Also, notice how others saying stuff like this here on HN are downvoted into oblivion.

It's probably a tribal mentality: just like people become fans of some sports team (Giants vs. Red Sox) or car brands (Ford vs. Chevy) and develop a religious fanaticism about it, probably the same thing happens with Microsoft and Apple (we definitely see it a lot with the latter). Worse, with MS in particular, a lot of peoples' livelihoods are tied up in the whole MS ecosystem. So perhaps all the pro-MS downvoting and posting is coming from people who've bought into MS, especially for their careers (namely, legions of .NET programmers and MCSEs).

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by ocdtrekkie on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @03:36PM (#12551481)
Moment I saw it this morning I was like "probably one of those SSDs with a really weird driver setup". My Surface Pro 4 has one too, and Acronis didn't initially work with it either.
Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by Hydraulix989 on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @04:26PM (#12551895)
Except that's an inaccurate assumption.

If you actually read the specifics about the situation, you'll learn that the SSD is set up in RAID mode, and the Intel hardware also supports AHCI mode.

Acronis and all other OSes do not have driver-level support for this new experimental RAID hardware at all; they do support AHCI, of course, like they have for years.

The BIOS normally has an option to revert the hardware back to normal AHCI mode, but Lenovo intentionally restricted the Advanced page in the BIOS containing this option (which is available and unrestricted by default in the BIOS code they received from the manufacturer) by adding a goto statement to the BIOS's code.

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by ocdtrekkie on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @05:08PM (#12552263)
My understanding is that experimental support for the new RAID mode in Linux already exists. AFAIK, Acronis boots a Linux-based OS, and they were able to get it to support the Surface Pro 4 when it's using that mode, so presumably, they figured it out.

As far as why Lenovo restricted it, it's likely for the same reason Lenovo was prohibited from preinstalling software. Signature PCs claim to have the "best" performance settings, mandated by Microsoft. If NVMe is superior to AHCI, Microsoft would sensibly mandate NVMe.

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by Hydraulix989 on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @05:20PM (#12552353)
"My understanding is that experimental support for the new RAID mode in Linux already exists."

That is not true, many users have tried using the very latest bleeding edge kernel. The drive is not detected at all by Linux when it is in RAID mode. The usual fix is to disable RAID mode and just use AHCI. On most sane systems (but not Lenovo), you can do this easily by changing a single BIOS setting.

Also, my understanding is that the benchmarks show no appreciable performance benefits of single-drive SSD RAID over AHCI.

[dead]
Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by sqeaky on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @04:17PM (#12551836)
I came here to say this. I am not sure why you got downvoted so much.

They have behaved in negative ways for a long time they will need to behave differently for quite a long time before they are trusted again.

They have cleaned up many but not all of their behaviors. They are still abusing patents against smaller android distributors. If they care about their patents they would sue Google or the AOSP steering group (or whoever runs it). If they were actually with an open ecosystem they wouldn't be doing those lawsuits.

In the context of Microsoft's behavior, blaming them is not an unreasonable default stance. Though when evidence does come along to the contrary someone holding such a stance must be willing to change it or be wrong.

Re:Microsoft aren't forcing Lenovo to block free operating s... by johansch on Wednesday September 21, 2016 @04:24PM (#12551876)
This industry runs on young people. Old people are far and between. (In this context, old means anyone who actually experienced Microsoft's behavior between mid 80s and late 90s.)

Most (80%) developer experiences these days are probably limited to their behavior from year ~2008 and onwards.