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Re:The cypherpunk revolution by neaden on Monday September 19, 2016 @12:27PM (#12532618)
A good read but I'm struck by how politically naive so many of the crypto crowd seems to be. The idea of escaping the government by going into cyberspace is nonsenical on it's head. You are a body. You buy things for your body. You go do body things all the time. Besides buying software, ebooks, and movies everything else you buy with something like bitcoin is physical and cannot be encrypted. Even with Lackey living on Sealand on San Fransico time had to be buying canned food, diesel, etc. If any government had been interested in what he was doing it would have been trivially easy to keep tabs on him.

ETA: This quote from May especially struck me “Would Hitler and Himmler have used ‘key recovery’ to determine who the Jews were communicating with so they could all be rounded up and killed?” The Nazi's wouldn't have really cared what Jewish people were saying because they just wanted to kill them. Similarly if we think of something like the Soviet Union while cryptography would have undeniably been helpful for dissidents for coordination and getting ideas out ultimately you still need to have people on the streets or in office to get anything changed.

Re:The cypherpunk revolution by pjc50 on Monday September 19, 2016 @01:39PM (#12533161)
Here is a more recent example from history: the use of encrypted communications by the ANC in organising against the South African government.

https://www.nelsonmandela.org/omalley/index.php/site/q/03lv0...

You're right that you need to have people on the streets or in office to get anything changed. I think too many people forget this and forgo the slow hard work of street-by-street politics and downticket races.

Re:The cypherpunk revolution by neaden on Monday September 19, 2016 @02:32PM (#12533590)
Agreed. I want to be clear that I do think that encryption has an important role in organization and social change. I'm just struck by claims from some of the self-identified cypher-punks that encryption could mean taxation would be impossible or the idea of escaping into this "Other Plane" as a way to secure freedom.
Re:The cypherpunk revolution by e12e on Monday September 19, 2016 @04:34PM (#12534475)
Agreed. I'm not even sure if it's all that interesting that encryption plays a role: I think privacy, and by extension secrecy plays a role. And in our world, cryptography is increasingly a precursor to both privacy and secrecy.

But I think the fight about making cryptography available, really is the fight for right to privacy, and even right to secrecy in certain areas of our society. The USA is fortunate in some ways because of the constitution, and its repercussions throughout modern history - even if law enforcement can build or buy a device to see through walls, that doesn't allow such tools to be used without regulation.

But now is the time to regulate large scale meta-data, traffic analysis, in addition to guaranteeing a right to technology that allows data to be kept secret.

Re:The cypherpunk revolution by stale2002 on Monday September 19, 2016 @06:36PM (#12535347)
Why couldn't it make taxation impossible?

Sure, you still need to buy things in person, which can be done with cash. But drug dealers seem to be able to do a pretty good job of evading taxes.

Imagine if everything that you bought in person was done with cash, or a bitcoin payment. That money would be untaxable.

If you buy a house, for sure, the government can track that, and you need to make sure the money used to buy that is "clean", but a surprising large percentage of a person expenses could be done in a safe way.

Re:The cypherpunk revolution by philipkglass on Monday September 19, 2016 @07:38PM (#12535671)
It's not sufficient to just lean heavily on cash. You also need to have a legitimate-looking explanation for where the cash came from if the tax authorities check up on you. Even if you can work anonymously and get paid via anonymously mailed envelopes of cash or Bitcoin, good luck living a normal middle class lifestyle while avoiding income taxes.

Buying a house or renting housing leaves a paper trail. So does renting or buying a car from most places that sell or rent cars. So does paying utility bills. So does paying for prescription drugs, medical services, car insurance, life insurance... So does paying for higher education.

I guess if you had some cash-only tax evading side business you could use cash to buy things like food, clothing, gasoline, and miscellaneous household goods. But you're not going to be able to dodge the taxes on middle class life's major expenses -- at least not without tripping the same mechanisms that catch drug dealers buying cars etc. with cash. I suppose you could live like an off-the-grid survivalist who never interacts with ordinary businesses. That looks like a lot more work than living an ordinary life where you work at jobs that don't involve trusting other criminals, buy things and pay taxes like usual.

Re:The cypherpunk revolution by pjc50 on Tuesday September 20, 2016 @07:26AM (#12538641)
Cash-only for everything is just about feasible, if you accept the extra costs of theft prevention. But bitcoin? Bitcoin is ridiculously traceable. Every transaction is public. Make one opsec mistake and everything is exposed.

You're also assuming that the government would sit still in the face of a serious erosion of the tax base, and not crack down on it. The US is bad enough with its arbitary seizures of cash, let's not destabilise the situation further.

Re:The cypherpunk revolution by johnmarius on Monday September 19, 2016 @06:48PM (#12535409)
With Bitcoin there is no central agency that can simply confiscate money with a call. The government would have to torture you for the private key. But there is not even a way to see, let alone prove, how much money you own, as long as you made it anonymously.
Re:The cypherpunk revolution by cortesoft on Monday September 19, 2016 @01:03PM (#12532886)
I think you have an interesting point about still having to live in the real world, but I don't find your argument about Hitler and the Jews persuasive at all.

Just because cryptography isn't useful for that particular case doesn't make it not useful for other cases; no one is arguing crypto will fix all government abuses. It doesn't mean it isn't a useful tool, though, in fighting corrupt governments.

Re:The cypherpunk revolution by neaden on Monday September 19, 2016 @02:37PM (#12533621)
Agreed but May is the one who brought up the Hitler comparison. I think that encryption is minimally effective in cases of actual totalitarian states like Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, or North Korea. They have too much control, secret police, informers, etc. that encryption doesn't represent a viable way of effecting change in government. In those types of situations your neighbors can just report you for being a dissident and the Stasi can just carry you away in the middle of the night or bug your entire home.

In countries like the USA, or even Apartheid South Africa it can have a much bigger role in organizing protests and other activities.

Re:The cypherpunk revolution by rmc on Monday September 19, 2016 @03:15PM (#12533928)
(Some) Jews were being hidden by non-Jews. The Nazis would be very interested in the secret communication between the people/groups hiding Jews.
Re:The cypherpunk revolution by johnmarius on Monday September 19, 2016 @06:45PM (#12535397)
Using encrypted communications and bitcoin you can make sure that all your physical interactions are with people you can trust. Dark Net Markets are an example.
Re:The cypherpunk revolution by fu9ar on Monday September 19, 2016 @01:48PM (#12533222)
I don't want everything I read and write online to be analyzed by agents of a government agency who have, along with some other agencies, spent the majority of the past fifty years engaged in unilateral neo-fascist imperialism. I was under the impression that such spying was forbidden by the laws of my land. Apparently, The American Dream is dead and we are all simply feasting on it's corpse.