News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Chrome is warning users about insecure pages by eatbitseveryday on Friday September 02, 2016 @12:23PM (#12414131)
Tim Berners-Lee has an article titled 'Web Security - "HTTPS Everywhere" harmful'[1]. He argues not that encryption is bad (as the title might ambiguously suggest), but that the use of a different URI prefix (http vs https) is harmful because it requires use of that prefix to ensure encryption and authentication is used. Rather, the HTTP prefix should be used for encryption, and upgraded in real-time by the client.

> A proposal then is to do HTTPS everywhere in the sense of the protocol but not the URI prefix. A browser gives the secure-looking user interface message, such as displaying the server certificate holder name above the document, only when the document has been fetched in an authenticated over an encrypted channel. This can be done by upgrading the HTTP to include TLS in real time, or in future cases by just trying encrypted version first.

He also states

> It is the user's task to ensure that their interactions are secure.

meaning, users are trained to look for the 's' but browsers are hiding the URI prefix, making this difficult.

[1] https://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Security-NotTheS.html

Re:Chrome is warning users about insecure pages by hannob on Friday September 02, 2016 @12:27PM (#12414181)
This pops up every time. I don't really get what he's trying to tell us here. If we forward HTTP requests to HTTPS and use HSTS on top we're basically doing what he wants, right?
Re:Chrome is warning users about insecure pages by pdpi on Friday September 02, 2016 @12:52PM (#12414393)
As I understand it, he's suggesting that HTTP should incorporate something equivalent to STARTTLS as seen in some form in IMAP, POP3, FTP, LDAP, Postgres, and probably several others I'm forgrttingg
Re:Chrome is warning users about insecure pages by marcosdumay on Friday September 02, 2016 @01:15PM (#12414564)
Well, that gave really bad results in SMTP IMAP, POP3, and LDAP. Postgres just does not suffer much because the client always knows wether to upgrade the connection or not.

Ideally, we should be using DANE or some other kind of signed broadcasted info. Telling the user what happened is just a very good workaround (that will stay useful even if we change to DANE).

Re:Chrome is warning users about insecure pages by tho9Ohx1eo on Saturday September 03, 2016 @04:36AM (#12418345)
What bad results in IMAP or SMTP? In my experience this works as advertised.
Re:Chrome is warning users about insecure pages by eatbitseveryday on Friday September 02, 2016 @02:13PM (#12414982)
> If we forward HTTP requests to HTTPS and use HSTS

Right, I think his point there was, the ecosystem has to make many changes to ensure the links are the "secure version": we create URLs with https, make browser changes to redirect (HSTS), use redirect in server software, etc.

With "just" HTTP, all URLs are uniform, but the protocol is modified upon connection to 'upgrade' the link to something secure, instead. HSTS maybe wouldn't be needed (or would take a slightly different form).

Re:Chrome is warning users about insecure pages by serge2k on Friday September 02, 2016 @01:58PM (#12414867)
> browsers are hiding the URI prefix

Maybe browsers should stop with that idiocy then.

Re:Chrome is warning users about insecure pages by matt4077 on Friday September 02, 2016 @02:58PM (#12415355)
The protocol prefix is a technical implementation detail. It'd be quite a coincidence if it also happened to be the best users interface.

Browser developers aren't in a position to retrain users to their preferred ideology. Their job is to find ways to make the web easier to use.

And in fact they have: green URL bars, padlocks etc. – these are UI metaphors that do a much better job than a one-letter change in a cryptic initialism from the 70'ies.

Even holier-than-thou professionals should profit from this: a green URL actually means the connection is protected, whereas it's quite easy to use https without actually using encryption or at least using completely insecure ciphers.

Re:Chrome is warning users about insecure pages by ploxiln on Friday September 02, 2016 @06:47PM (#12416806)
Have you used browsers since 1999 or so?

First, browsers added a padlock icon on the left for https:// sites. Then, phishing sites, and even banking websites, started using a padlock for their favicon, and users couldn't tell the difference. So it was abandoned.

Then, the whole background of the URL bar was turned a sort of gold-yellow color when the site was secure. It was like this: http://www.facebookloginhut.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/s...

Then that effect was removed, I think it scared some users, or they didn't know to look for it, I don't know.

Now, favicons are never shown in the URL bar so a padlock favicon can no longer mislead. Some browser started hiding "http://", some started coloring "https://". (Now many do both.) The extended-validation green pill thing was added. It's harder than ever to allow a self-signed cert when you're using a service you set up yourself on your LAN.

Apparently there are more changes planned, every year or so. "users" have no chance of keeping this stuff straight, only "experts" like me and you do.

Re:Chrome is warning users about insecure pages by lstamour on Friday September 02, 2016 @11:59PM (#12417640)
I think people learn to follow whatever their browser does, assuming they bother to notice in the first place.

I wouldn't worry as much about how to get people to notice security, browser vendors are on the right track by popping up giant notices for insecure sites and sites with malware.

They just need to extend the "untrusted download" concept from operating systems to email where you could have "untrusted link" warnings in your browser instead. "Are you sure you want to visit paypal.28753272.server? You really shouldn't trust this link..."

Re:Chrome is warning users about insecure pages by jedberg on Friday September 02, 2016 @02:18PM (#12415034)
You've clearly never worked with the 99% of people who use the internet who don't care about https, much less know what it is.

They don't understand that when someone says "go to google.com" that something isn't wrong when the url bar says "https://google.com". They think they something is broken.

Heck, Safari now be default doesn't even show you the path, they just show the domain, because once people get to foo.com they don't even understand about the paths, nor care.

Re:Chrome is warning users about insecure pages by eatbitseveryday on Friday September 02, 2016 @04:14PM (#12415935)
> people who use the internet who don't care about https, much less know what it is.

While I agree, I do not believe this is an appropriate excuse for ignorance (I am not accusing you of anything, just criticizing the viewpoint itself).

Computers are part of life. People know about antibiotics, vaccine, stem cells, black holes, and they know atomic radiation causes cancer and the same material can be used for atomic bombs, about wavelengths, and certain ones (UV) cause cancer by breaking DNA, etc.

But, not technology? How is there such a well-formed ignorance when it comes to technology? It's fed to us by the media too, who cite "computer glitches"[1,2,3] when something goes wrong, or when there is a breach of the system and all credentials stolen.

And, not understanding URLs leads to susceptibility to information being stolen from phishing attacks. Whose "fault" is there here?

[1] "Glitch" http://money.cnn.com/2013/12/26/news/companies/delta-ticket-...

[2] "Something broke" https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/08/departmen...

[3] "Glitch" http://www.nbcnews.com/video/nightly-news/48088061

Re:Chrome is warning users about insecure pages by nitrogen on Friday September 02, 2016 @02:28PM (#12415120)
Just like learning what stoplights mean when driving a car, those users need to adapt to the basic signals of the web.
Re:Chrome is warning users about insecure pages by groby_b on Friday September 02, 2016 @02:56PM (#12415332)
Those "basic signals of the web" are useless to the user. They carry no meaningful information for them.

You don't need to learn about the Dewey decimal system when reading books, either. For the same reason - it's helpful for finding things, it allows you to classify books, and it doesn't matter at all since there are better ways to find books now.

Re:Chrome is warning users about insecure pages by nommm-nommm on Friday September 02, 2016 @03:35PM (#12415666)
There's no web surfing license or web surfing test, that's the big difference.
Re:Chrome is warning users about insecure pages by ploxiln on Friday September 02, 2016 @06:50PM (#12416820)
Because people like you, and "UI/UX experts", have put so much effort into downplaying and hiding simple important pieces of information. This shit is as easy, and as useful, as traffic signs.
Re:Chrome is warning users about insecure pages by thedufer on Friday September 02, 2016 @05:54PM (#12416556)
Am I missing something, or is this suggestion trivially mitm-able? If you fail to forward the request the upgrade, neither side will know something is missing.
Re:Chrome is warning users about insecure pages by spb on Friday September 02, 2016 @06:58PM (#12416846)
I think you're missing the part where a non-upgraded connection will be treated by the client as insecure and untrustable.
Re:Chrome is warning users about insecure pages by thedufer on Saturday September 03, 2016 @11:12AM (#12419471)
So the suggestion is that in 1994 (when the https protocol was introduced) we should have put big scary warnings on every non-ssl site? I don't see how that could've gone well. It's now 22 years later and people still aren't ready for that.
Re:Chrome is warning users about insecure pages by oxplot on Saturday September 03, 2016 @12:36AM (#12417750)
What I don't get is, why don't browsers try https as well as http when bare/http URI is entered so we can simply make servers stop listening on 80.