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Re:Basic income doesn't emphasize divisions between poor and... by DougWebb on Monday August 29, 2016 @11:24AM (#12382465)
It's not that clear cut. Your options are more like:

1) Trust your brother, feed him and let him crash. Costs you $50.

2) Don't trust your brother. Hire an investigator to determine if he bought weed. Most of the time nothing is found so you wind up helping him, which now cost $70. Occaaionally you discover something and choose not to help. Still costs you $20.

Is #2 worth it? That depends on how often the investigator finds a reason not to help.

Re:Basic income doesn't emphasize divisions between poor and... by cloverich on Monday August 29, 2016 @11:33AM (#12382554)
Also time -- the $50 option costs no time. I think your argument is important. We spend a ton of time debating and considering how to prevent freeloaders. I'm more inclined to just ignore them and see how it goes, then start adding checks into the system when (if?) its apparent the free-loaders are a legitimate threat to the system.
Re:Basic income doesn't emphasize divisions between poor and... by pnutjam on Monday August 29, 2016 @12:32PM (#12383051)
What if your brother has hungry kids? Moral superiority doesn't feed kids.
Re:Basic income doesn't emphasize divisions between poor and... by jackcosgrove on Monday August 29, 2016 @11:34AM (#12382557)
There's a third option which always costs $0.
Re:Basic income doesn't emphasize divisions between poor and... by CPLX on Monday August 29, 2016 @11:50AM (#12382699)
There's never an option costing zero as long as the brother in question has the ability to punch you in the face and take your food for leaving him to starve.
Re:Basic income doesn't emphasize divisions between poor and... by tw04 on Monday August 29, 2016 @12:17PM (#12382907)
The fact there's a section of the population who believes that poor people won't turn to crime before starving to death simply amazes me.

You actually have 4 options: do nothing and then put people in jail. Which will cost you WAYYYYYY more per person, per year, than just giving them money directly to "freeload".

Do nothing and wait for the mass revolt when half the population is starving to death when you've got someone like Martin Shkreli buying his fourth Ferrari "just because". If you think the masses will just roll over and die if they're starving to death, you're delusional (whether intentionally or not).

Re:Basic income doesn't emphasize divisions between poor and... by gwright on Monday August 29, 2016 @09:39PM (#12386815)
I'm a bit dismayed at the lack of imagination in this thread.

How about designing public policy that provide incentives to work rather than incentives not to work? (earned income tax credits)

How about decreasing the cost of labor in order to increase employment while simultaneously providing programs that assist during periods of unemployment? (e.g., make it easier to hire and to fire and switch jobs while providing strong unemployment safety net, decouple health insurance from employment)

How about setting expectations that people be self-sufficient and not dependent upon others? This is a more of a cultural problem then a policy problem.

Re:Basic income doesn't emphasize divisions between poor and... by DougWebb on Monday August 29, 2016 @11:56PM (#12387424)
How does an incentive to work accomplish anything if the only jobs that are available (if any for a given person's skillset) are ones that pay far too little to live on. ("decreasing the cost of labor" == "reduce or eliminate the minimum wage")

Most poor people work very hard to earn enough to survive; much harder per $ earned than most people on this website. They don't need an incentive to work, they need jobs that pay better for each hour they work.

Raising the minimum wage won't accomplish that by itself, because most companies would reduce the number of positions to keep their costs stable. We could raise the minimum wage and then provide tax credits to businesses to offset the additional labor cost, but that'd wind up complex to administer and there would probably be loopholes that allow companies to take tax credits and keep the cash to themselves instead of paying them through to employees. With Basic Income, we effectively raise the minimum wage by direct payments to the employee; their income per hour worked goes up. This is much simpler to administer: everyone gets the same amount, and it counts as taxable income.

Re:Basic income doesn't emphasize divisions between poor and... by gwright on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @08:56AM (#12389568)
Earned Income Tax Credit

A situation in which assistance is given to people who are working (albeit for a lower wage) is a much better situation than assistance being given to people who aren't working at all.

There is value in enabling people to have jobs, even low paying jobs.

Many workplace laws and regulations effectively increase the cost of labor in the aggregate. So "decreasing the cost of labor" is not all about lowering pay. Think of things like overtime rules, mandatory benefits, onerous compliance rules, shifting various legal burdens to the employer rather than the employee, making it more difficult to fire someone.

Re:Basic income doesn't emphasize divisions between poor and... by maxerickson on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @09:07AM (#12389668)
The EIC awards a max of ~$6,200 to people with 3 or more children.

How many people with 3 kids do you think are going to stop working if they get an unconditional government benefit of $6,000?

I think the EIC does a good job of addressing the need some people have to moralize about the sanctity of labor, I doubt it has much of any impact on the labor market (it mostly just makes the lives of some kids better).

[dead]
Re:Basic income doesn't emphasize divisions between poor and... by CPLX on Tuesday August 30, 2016 @07:56AM (#12389188)
> Most people don't work hard.

Doubtless. I've even heard rumors that some miscreants collect healthy software developer salaries but just post on HN all day.

Re:Basic income doesn't emphasize divisions between poor and... by jimmyk on Monday August 29, 2016 @12:47PM (#12383157)

  The fact there's a section of the population who
  believes that poor people won't turn to crime
  before starving to death simply amazes me.
Who believes this?
Re:Basic income doesn't emphasize divisions between poor and... by kamaal on Monday August 29, 2016 @05:23PM (#12385471)
https://www.google.com/#safe=active&q=define+extortion

the practice of obtaining something, especially money, through force or threats.

[dead]
Re:Basic income doesn't emphasize divisions between poor and... by CPLX on Monday August 29, 2016 @12:37PM (#12383085)
It's actually not a particularly interesting or unique view, it's obvious, and essentially the basis of civilization.

Organisms that hoard resources have been targets of violence since we were all protozoa.

A widely used basic definition of government is simply the group that has cornered the market on the recognized use of violence.

Rich people have to do something to grapple with poverty or the poor people will kill them and eat their food. Same as it ever was, and its reality doesn't change in response to your moral judgement.

Re:Basic income doesn't emphasize divisions between poor and... by yummyfajitas on Monday August 29, 2016 @01:44PM (#12383642)
Seems like effective policing and residential segregation will be a far more effective use of resources. Cops are cheap, welfare is expensive.
Re:Basic income doesn't emphasize divisions between poor and... by CPLX on Monday August 29, 2016 @03:06PM (#12384346)
That strategy is working great in Rio and Sao Paolo, perhaps you could visit and report back on their success.
Re:Basic income doesn't emphasize divisions between poor and... by alanwatts on Monday August 29, 2016 @12:25PM (#12382986)
>the poor will spend all their money on drugs,

If and when attempting to formulate coherent arguments, avoid using such absolute statements.

Re:Basic income doesn't emphasize divisions between poor and... by alanwatts on Monday August 29, 2016 @11:55AM (#12382745)
Which one is that?
Re:Basic income doesn't emphasize divisions between poor and... by wccrawford on Monday August 29, 2016 @12:10PM (#12382865)
Leave your brother to die on the street, cold and hungry and ignored. Of course.
Re:Basic income doesn't emphasize divisions between poor and... by yummyfajitas on Monday August 29, 2016 @12:25PM (#12382983)
After sleeping on the street for one night, the brother might also choose to spend his money on rent rather than weed the next time around.
Re:Basic income doesn't emphasize divisions between poor and... by dwaltrip on Monday August 29, 2016 @12:41PM (#12383114)
Do you have any evidence for that? I would wager it leans in the other direction: sleeping on the street leads to other negative behaviors, in aggregate.
Re:Basic income doesn't emphasize divisions between poor and... by dpark on Monday August 29, 2016 @07:55PM (#12386375)
You might want to check on the price of weed vs rent in a typical city. The brother is unlikely to forgo the weed if doing so just means he's sleeping in the streets sober instead of high.