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Re:Guiding a Venture-Backed Startup to a Felony by jessaustin on Saturday August 20, 2016 @01:23PM (#12327469)
Calling this a "venture-backed startup" is a stretch. It was really just a con. One couldn't reasonably expect a single author who wrote five westerns all by herself to net $250k for her efforts. They didn't really expect to be able to pay back the investor after buying all those goodies for themselves, even if they could have gotten a single book written.
Re:Guiding a Venture-Backed Startup to a Felony by fencepost on Saturday August 20, 2016 @02:33PM (#12327773)
The description of what they were proposing sounds like a whole stream of shlock Westerns from the late 80s - the Western equivalent of Harlequin romances, complete with series numbers that reached into triple digits. You used to see whole shelves of these in used book stores.

Took a bit of searching, but stuff like the Trailsman and Longarm series, some of which may still be alive - and with close to 400 books in the series.

I have to agree with jessaustin - this was a con. The fact that they were able to leverage a securities connection into felony charges does not make it venture capital.

Edit: see http://www.readersadvice.com/readadv/000214.html for a list of some series and books in them.

Re:Guiding a Venture-Backed Startup to a Felony by sigacts on Saturday August 20, 2016 @01:58PM (#12327628)
I agree with your assessment. What is intetesting is that this group structured the deal like a venture-backed company. The LLC documents looked like many other versions I have seen. The Scoundrel folks thought that this formation scheme gave them immunity from accountability.
Re:Guiding a Venture-Backed Startup to a Felony by will_brown on Saturday August 20, 2016 @02:07PM (#12327665)
I see it quite regularly where laymen create an LLC, find themselves personally liable for company actions/debts and then can not wrap their mind around how they could be liable for an entity that is literally called a limited liability company.

It actually reminds me of the people who take the opinion that in the magical world of the DAO no one can be liable for anything because by definition if an action occurred, then it is legal because it was contractually agreed to.

It's an important lesson to learn that corporate veils can be pierced and contracts can be voided (i.e. unfair; deceptive; fraud in the inducment; illegal; etc...).

Re:Guiding a Venture-Backed Startup to a Felony by tamana on Saturday August 20, 2016 @05:07PM (#12328314)
The word "limited liability" refers to the fact that the owners are liability only for an amount up to their investment, within the scope of the corporation. The limit refers to the investment, not the fact that criminal activity is still legal exposure. Obviously an owner cannot sign away liability for individual criminal activity, same as with any corporation.
Re:Guiding a Venture-Backed Startup to a Felony by will_brown on Saturday August 20, 2016 @07:57PM (#12328846)
And while you have stated the rule, what people don't understand is the exceptions in which members/owners of LLCs can in fact be personally liable above and beyond their investment in the entity.
Re:Guiding a Venture-Backed Startup to a Felony by ufmace on Saturday August 20, 2016 @06:54PM (#12328617)
Exactly what I thought. It doesn't look like they made even a minimal effort to actually create what they told the investor they were going to create. Sounds more like they slapped together a plausible-sounding story to con some guy out of a pile of cash, and tried to use standard startup investment stuff to shield themselves from liability for running a con.

Which also means that trying to take lessons from them seems kinda silly. If you're not trying to run a con, you don't need a web list to tell you how to not look like you're running a con.

The only one to take lessons from here is the investor. If you're new to investing, don't invest money in a random startup run by strangers based on a slick pitch. Do hire some people who know what they're talking about to do some due diligence. If you're putting a quarter mil at risk, it's worth at least spending a few grand to make sure they're legit.

Re:Guiding a Venture-Backed Startup to a Felony by 35bge57dtjku on Saturday August 20, 2016 @02:03PM (#12327650)
I'd think a web portal that fits the bill could be constructed for about 10k, maybe 20k. So I wonder if the rest could have actually paid for the 5 novels.

> One couldn't reasonably expect a single author who wrote five westerns all by herself to net $250k for her efforts.

Why not, that's too low for any author? I would have thought they could find someone somewhere who'd agree to make 5 mediocre, somewhat short novels for 150k total, maybe someone just starting out.

Wouldn't that have at least been a real effort and protected them from being charged with fraud? That'd leave them with 80k in profit. They'd still have to get around the part where they agree money won't be used for their salaries, but they'd at least have fulfilled the letter of the agreement. And 80k for a few weeks of work is pretty good, imo.

Re:Guiding a Venture-Backed Startup to a Felony by will_brown on Saturday August 20, 2016 @02:14PM (#12327693)
>Wouldn't that have at least been a real effort and protected them from being charged with fraud?

This is very close to the standard for a defense to criminal fraud and grand theft (when there is a contract). Basically if you can show even minimal effort was made to comply with the contract, usually that will be a strong defense to fraud and/or grand theft.

Off the top of my head there is one case where a guy was contracted to paint a house, he bought the paint and showed up day one but never did any work. He was convicted of theft but on appeal it was over turned because since he made some effort it showed he didn't have intent to defraud when he entered the contract (obviously that is debatable). However, that is just the criminal side he would still clearly be liable in the civil context for at least breach of contract.

Re:Guiding a Venture-Backed Startup to a Felony by fencepost on Saturday August 20, 2016 @02:39PM (#12327807)
Too low? I'd say probably close to 10x too high. I'm pretty sure the folks churning out a lot of westerns that could be considered "50 Shades for men" were paid $500-5000 per book.
Re:Guiding a Venture-Backed Startup to a Felony by vidarh on Saturday August 20, 2016 @04:02PM (#12328090)
You're probably right. It took ~2min to find someone on Twitter that charges ~$1300 for a 40,000 work book.

I'm sure you can do cheaper.

The thing is, you can churn out books like that in less than a month [1] if you follow a formula and write fast, and given there are plenty of people in low income countries that can write perfectly fine English, if you don't care much about quality you can certainly get hold of a bunch of mediocre westerns without paying a lot.

[1] E.g. Louis Masterson / Kjell Hallbing is an example. When he started the Morgan Kane series, he churned out a book a month. The initial series was of 83 books, and he's written more than a 100 westerns overall.

Re:Guiding a Venture-Backed Startup to a Felony by DanBC on Saturday August 20, 2016 @02:08PM (#12327670)
> Why not, that's too low for any author?

It feels like a bit of a gamble to write a series of books and throw a huge marketing budget at them. That's what publishers have been doing, and it doesn't work for most of their books.

Average earnings for published authors in UK is £11k pa.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/apr/20/earnings-autho...

> The top 10% of professional authors, those who make £60,000 or more a year from their writing, earned 58% of all the money made by professional authors in 2013, and the top 5%, those making more than £100,000, earned 42.3% of that money. The top 1%, who make mean average earnings of more than £450,000, take 22.7% of all earnings, said the Authors’ Licensing & Collecting Society, which commissioned the UK-based survey.

> The picture for lower-earning writers was much bleaker. The bottom 50% of authors were those who earned less than £10,500 in 2013, and accounted for just 7% of the amount earned by all writers put together. And 17% of all writers did not earn anything at all during 2013, said the ALCS, adding that 98% of those authors had published a work every year from 2010 to 2013.

I dunno, does this make it sound like the scam / system described in the submission is worth a punt?

Re:Guiding a Venture-Backed Startup to a Felony by TheOtherHobbes on Saturday August 20, 2016 @11:18PM (#12329238)
Most publishers throw little or no marketing budget at books, which is one reason most books do so badly.

Promoting book sales via a specialist niche community site isn't a bad idea.

In fact niche marketing was more or less how 50 Shades got started. It was a crappy novel marketed brilliantly by a professional marketer, who went from persuading a small community to praise the book, to leveraging that praise to get interest from other online communities, to leveraging that interest into a mainstream publishing contract with formal marketing support.

Of course, for that to work you need a marketable demo.

Outdoorsmen who read erotic fiction in between heroic fishing exploits are possibly not the world's biggest niche book market.

Re:Guiding a Venture-Backed Startup to a Felony by 35bge57dtjku on Saturday August 20, 2016 @02:20PM (#12327722)
> It feels like a bit of a gamble to write a series of books and throw a huge marketing budget at them.

How much money would they even have had to spend on marketing the books, given they would have their own web portal?

> I dunno, does this make it sound like the scam / system described in the submission is worth a punt?

Maybe not if you're trying to make a successful business. But if you're trying to do the bare minimum to quickly score about 80k usd while still protecting yourself from fraud/felony charges, wouldn't this be good news? It sounds like you could easily find an author who'd be happy with 10k or even 15k per year.

Re:Guiding a Venture-Backed Startup to a Felony by cookiecaper on Saturday August 20, 2016 @04:41PM (#12328229)
>It feels like a bit of a gamble to write a series of books and throw a huge marketing budget at them. That's what publishers have been doing, and it doesn't work for most of their books.

So what? Isn't all investment "a bit of a gamble"? If it was self-evident that money would be made, it wouldn't be a good investment opportunity. Some degree of risk is inherent.

To be clear, I'm not defending the fraud described in the article, only the concept that someone may rationally wish to invest behind a self-published author.

Re:Guiding a Venture-Backed Startup to a Felony by scott00 on Saturday August 20, 2016 @08:22PM (#12328899)
> Wouldn't that have at least been a real effort and protected them from being charged with fraud?

They were charged with securities fraud, not plain old every day fraud. My guess would be that just their "conservative scenario" of "you get all your money back" would be enough to put them into securities fraud territory. Having read a fair number of securities documents, that claim really leapt off the page at me. Usually offering documents have an extensive list of risks and stay far far away from promising your money back.

That said, I'm not a lawyer, and this was a prosecution under Colorado state securities laws (I'm much more familiar with federal). I would be interested in an expert answer to that question from someone who's familiar with the case law and the typical approach taken by prosecutors in similar cases.

Re:Guiding a Venture-Backed Startup to a Felony by michaelbuckbee on Saturday August 20, 2016 @04:41PM (#12328230)
The one interesting aspect of this that jumped out of me was product placement within the novels. Has this ever actually happened? It's ubiquitous in TV and movies, but novels?
Re:Guiding a Venture-Backed Startup to a Felony by chris11 on Saturday August 20, 2016 @04:29PM (#12328184)
Their plan seemed really unfocused too. They wanted to create a major website just to run ads on it. I agree, this just looks like a con.
Re:Guiding a Venture-Backed Startup to a Felony by chiph on Saturday August 20, 2016 @04:49PM (#12328262)
Well, it worked for the "Million Dollar Homepage" guy. But yeah, I smell scam.