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Re:The stuff we need is getting more expensive, other stuff ... by imgabe on Friday August 19, 2016 @03:40PM (#12322899)
The market for healthcare is not free. If you don't buy it, you die or suffer in pain. There's no other transaction where that would be considered a free consumer choice.

If you walked into Best Buy and they said "Buy this TV or we'll kill you" that would be robbery, not a free market transaction, but that's pretty much the choice you have when you decide to buy healthcare or not.

Re:The stuff we need is getting more expensive, other stuff ... by baconner on Friday August 19, 2016 @04:00PM (#12323034)
Not only that but a lot of the time you have no reasonable way to know what a medical service will cost you until it's already done. You can't even reason about shopping around for a better price much of the time. Insurance coverage rules are so complicated and astoundingly open to evaluation by your provider after the fact that consumer choice is basically nullified. There's effectively no downward price pressure at all for this reason. Insurers and medical providers have built a feedback loop of ever increasing prices that consumers have virtually no power to stop except by risking their own health.

Contrast that with a typically optional and not insured procedure like laser eye surgery where prices have fallen over time and are clearly advertised. Consumers can shop around and know ahead of time what the price will be thus prices fell.

Without that option there's nothing free about the market for consumers.

Re:The stuff we need is getting more expensive, other stuff ... by Kenji on Friday August 19, 2016 @04:00PM (#12323032)
Nonsense. Most cases of people going to the doctor are not immediately lethal. Broken bones, large skin lesions, rashes and the flu, back pain and tooth aches. With all of these things, it is really nice to go to the doctor, but you don't necessarily have to: You "just" face large amounts of pain and possibly long-term damage. Rational decision making takes place in a free market: You weigh your pain and the damage against the money spent at the doctor.

By socializing healthcare, we destroy its efficiency and drive up prices. If everyone goes to the doctor because of a little cough because it's "free", that is precisely the irrational uncapitalistic decision making we do not need. Another aspect is dumping millions into old people with end-stage cancer who die anyway, just prolonging the massive suffering by a couple of months or years (I personally know of such a case and it's heartbreaking how the greed of the doctors and the socialist health care system work together).

Re:The stuff we need is getting more expensive, other stuff ... by twblalock on Friday August 19, 2016 @04:25PM (#12323200)
> By socializing healthcare, we destroy its efficiency and drive up prices. If everyone goes to the doctor because of a little cough because it's "free", that is precisely the irrational uncapitalistic decision making we do not need.

You say that like you are predicting the outcome of an experiment that hasn't been tried -- but socialized medicine has been tried in dozens of countries, and the price and efficiency outcomes you predicted have not happened in any of them!

In fact, people going to the doctor more often for things like a "little cough" is a good thing, because it increases the likelihood that serious conditions will be discovered early, in the course of treating less-serious conditions. The life expectancy of Japanese people, which is the highest in the world, has been largely credited to the fact that they visit doctors more frequently than most other people.

Re:The stuff we need is getting more expensive, other stuff ... by Kenji on Friday August 19, 2016 @06:35PM (#12324006)
but socialized medicine has been tried in dozens of countries, and the price and efficiency outcomes you predicted have not happened in any of them

This is factually wrong. In countries where such a socialization has happened, a vast increase in medical spending happened as a result (depending on how much it was socialized). And there seems to be no end to the increasing prices of insurances and doctors.

Re:The stuff we need is getting more expensive, other stuff ... by dTal on Friday August 19, 2016 @09:04PM (#12324534)
You know, even if that were true (which I doubt) due to vast numbers of people now getting treatment they would have done without before, who is to say that the value rendered to society by that does not exceed the expenditure?

I don't think your idealized "market will fix everything" capitalist model takes account, among many other things, of the very true fact that people are frequently shortsighted and stupid.

Re:The stuff we need is getting more expensive, other stuff ... by DanBC on Friday August 19, 2016 @04:32PM (#12323253)
> If everyone goes to the doctor because of a little cough because it's "free"

If you've had a cough for more than 3 weeks it's probably nothing, but it might be cancer.

https://www.nhs.uk/be-clear-on-cancer/symptoms/lung-cancer

> If you've had a cough for three weeks or more, tell your doctor. It's probably nothing serious, but you're not wasting anyone's time by getting it checked out. Call your GP today.

> By socializing healthcare, we destroy its efficiency and drive up prices. If everyone goes to the doctor because of a little cough because it's "free", that is precisely the irrational uncapitalistic decision making we do not need.

We know you're wrong by looking at rates of medication compliance. People who are prescribed medication often don't take it correctly. This is the case for minor and severe illnesses; it's the case for life-threatening illnesses; and it's the case if people get their meds for free or if they pay market price for their meds.

Re:The stuff we need is getting more expensive, other stuff ... by dTal on Friday August 19, 2016 @08:56PM (#12324510)
Worth noting that that website - probably the most down-to-earth, accessible public health resource on the internet - is the product of a socialized health care system.
Re:The stuff we need is getting more expensive, other stuff ... by baconner on Friday August 19, 2016 @04:09PM (#12323094)
I think there's significant evidence that socialized healthcare does not increase medical costs vs a system like the us has. Quite the opposite. In the us our costs grow dramatically compared to the rest of the world yet our outcomes are worse than many socialized systems.

Socialized healthcare can absolutely include limits on what they will pay for and not to reduce overuse. There's zero reason it has to allow for unconstrained spending.

Re:The stuff we need is getting more expensive, other stuff ... by dragonwriter on Friday August 19, 2016 @06:47PM (#12324063)
> By socializing healthcare, we destroy its efficiency and drive up prices.

The US has one of the least socialized and least efficient healthcare systems in the OECD, so I'm quite skeptical about that.

Re:The stuff we need is getting more expensive, other stuff ... by wcummings on Friday August 19, 2016 @05:19PM (#12323535)
>By socializing healthcare, we destroy its efficiency

This is pretty rich. What world do you live in where healthcare is an efficient market?

Re:The stuff we need is getting more expensive, other stuff ... by metaphorm on Friday August 19, 2016 @05:49PM (#12323774)
your ideology is showing and its caused you to become absurdly detached from reality