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Re:The Despair of Poor White Americans by twblalock on Saturday August 06, 2016 @04:00PM (#12239630)
All of the fixes people normally think of have already been operational for these people. They live in the richest country in the world -- a country with free and compulsory public education, and a social safety net that is better than most people think (not as good as Europe's, but a lot better than nothing). And yet, these people have nothing to offer to anyone -- no job skills of any kind, in many cases.

We can't bring the manufacturing jobs back for these people, either. Let's dispel the notion that the collapse of manufacturing jobs in the rust belt, where many of these people live, was the result of political choices. It was inevitable -- the rise of China, southeast Asia, and Latin American countries has revealed the truth that US manufacturing was not globally competitive, but merely sheltered. NAFTA sent some jobs to Mexico, but in the absence of NAFTA, those jobs would have gone to Asia instead. If the US government had decided to protect US manufacturing jobs at all costs, we would have quickly learned what "all costs" means -- the cost of protecting those jobs would have risen quickly over the years until we could not have afforded it anymore. The tariffs required to do so would have been an enormous drag on the economy, and on the well-being of most Americans, and therefore unsustainable economically and politically. So the political choices involved in the collapse of manufacturing jobs could at best have delayed the inevitable.

So, whatever we can do for these people is by degrees -- improve the free public education they already have, improve the welfare benefits they already have, maybe cut their taxes, if they earn enough to pay taxes. We can't bring the jobs back, and it's naive of them to believe candidates who promise that they can.

But maybe we shouldn't feel sorry for these people, who grew up in the richest country in the world, with free education, and have nothing to offer to anyone. A lot has been done for them already, and unlike almost any other group in this country, they cannot point to any injustices visited upon them as an excuse for their current state of affairs. Let's keep in mind that they were never enslaved, and that they were sheltered from competition from non-whites and foreigners for decades. They have managed to fail in a country designed to promote the success of white people, often at the expense of other groups. Their lives are significantly better, more comfortable, and more secure than those of people in many countries of the world. Billions of people live in poverty these poor white Americans could never imagine. These Americans have housing, enough to eat, clothes to wear, cars, TVs, video game consoles, government-provided health care (Medicaid) and welfare payments in many cases -- all the trappings of middle-class life in many parts of the world. What else do we owe them? Self-actualization?

Frankly, I'd rather give my money to some of the billions of people in the world who live in ramshackle houses with dirt floors, no electricity, no education, and no way out. These white Americans have enough that I don't see how they are entitled to any more unless they earn it themselves.

Re:The Despair of Poor White Americans by untilHellbanned on Saturday August 06, 2016 @04:17PM (#12239701)
That's good and all to be disdainful, but if you live in the US you should care. People not being successful and happy here negatively impacts our country's capabilities. So it negatively affects you.

Also you are glorifying and over generalizing the opportunities to the Americans you disdain. Just because one has electricity does not mean one has opportunity. I think you'd be surprised to find that many Americans have no realistic way to know where to earn something themselves. 2 Hrs from NYC can be just as cut off from opportunity as 2000 miles.

Re:The Despair of Poor White Americans by yummyfajitas on Saturday August 06, 2016 @04:37PM (#12239791)
Suppose you were to take an Indian a Chinese, or a Mexican and drop them in the US. Drop them 2 hours from NYC (Princeton or Long Island?), give them permission to work, and nothing else.

Do you think this person will be stuck in poverty forever, given that he's cut off from opportunity by a 2 hour train ride?

Also, I find your claim that people in New Haven or Poughkeepsie (approx 2 hours away) don't know they could find work in NYC simply implausible. I've had random conversations in broken Hindi with auto drivers; when they ask where I'm from and I tell them "New York", they immediately recognize it. Random people in South America, SE Asia, etc all seem to have a pretty good picture of what NYC is. Yet somehow someone from Allentown, PA doesn't?

Re:The Despair of Poor White Americans by rayiner on Saturday August 06, 2016 @04:45PM (#12239833)
As someone from Bangladesh, I think it's utterly ridiculous that you keep talking about how much better poor Americans have it than Indians or Chinese. So what? What does it matter that people from countries were things are desperately bad are willing to trade places with people who are in a pretty bad situation in a great country? It's utterly irrelevant.
Re:The Despair of Poor White Americans by yummyfajitas on Saturday August 06, 2016 @04:54PM (#12239884)
It's hardly irrelevant. My claim is that the Indian, Bangladeshi or Chinese will better themselves and move up in the world, while the American refuses to do so.

That implies that it's the American's choices, rather than his circumstances, which cause him to be poor. How is that irrelevant?

Re:The Despair of Poor White Americans by searealist on Sunday August 07, 2016 @12:44AM (#12241089)
The _average_ Indian, Bangladeshi or Chinese will move up in the world? I get the impression that you are comparing the exceptional people from those countries to the lowest performing Americans. Also, if the average person from those countries is so much more industrious than Americans, why do they need to come to America to enjoy a good life?
Re:The Despair of Poor White Americans by twblalock on Saturday August 06, 2016 @04:55PM (#12239888)
It's totally relevant, because it demonstrates that there are people in the world more worthy of help than poor Americans.
Re:The Despair of Poor White Americans by twblalock on Saturday August 06, 2016 @04:28PM (#12239750)
> I think you'd be surprised to find that many Americans have no realistic way to know where to earn something themselves. 2 Hrs from NYC can be just as cut off from opportunity as 2000 miles.

They have TV, and the internet. It's not like they are cut off from civilization, with no knowledge of life outside of their immediate surroundings. They know that places like NYC are where the rich people live, and where the jobs are. They just can't do those jobs.

I'm sure we would be better off if all of these people were successful and productive, but it's unrealistic to assume that would happen, for the reasons I've enumerated in my comment. The bottom line is that they have had many advantages, and they have failed in a country that was designed to help white people succeed. Every country has people like this. Look at England.

People tend to assume that if someone is poor, they must be a victim of injustice, and that opportunities need to be created for them. That is sometimes true, but not always. This is one of those cases where it isn't.

What solutions do you propose that could turn these people into successful, productive, happy members of society?

Re:The Despair of Poor White Americans by untilHellbanned on Saturday August 06, 2016 @05:42PM (#12240056)
> They have TV, and the Internet.

Not often. Regardless, my solutions would start with chipping away at the disdain, indiffernece, and exploitation by privileged Americans. Wealth inequality creates a lot of the problems. Offshoring wealth to Ireland by Apple, FB, etc. to avoid taxes if you want to get even more granular.

Re:The Despair of Poor White Americans by twblalock on Saturday August 06, 2016 @05:51PM (#12240081)
> Not often.

Actually, almost everyone in America has TV and internet access, including the very poorest.

Re:The Despair of Poor White Americans by ajamesm on Saturday August 06, 2016 @04:29PM (#12239751)
Kindly explain to me how I am misreading this article:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/teens-baltimore-poorer-health...

"DR. ROBERT BLUM, JOHNS HOPKINS URBAN HEALTH INSTITUTE: Well, first of all, just to put that in perspective, if Baltimore were a country, we would be 75th in the world for infant mortality, below every industrialize country and many low and middle-income countries."

That is an American neighborhood. Tell me how Medicare and welfare payments make everything alright again?

--

I don't know if you've looked at how much gov't assistance is paying out, but it's not enough to live on. There's a plethora of data contradicting everything you say, but it doesn't fit with your moralizing narrative.

Re:The Despair of Poor White Americans by yummyfajitas on Saturday August 06, 2016 @04:44PM (#12239829)
it's not enough to live on. There's a plethora of data contradicting everything you say,

Why don't you cite some of it, then?

I can certainly cite plenty of data showing he's mostly right. For example, the poor mostly do not work, they mostly have good quality housing, and they have lots of food.

http://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publication...

http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/h150-07.pdf

https://www.brookings.edu/2015/01/08/weight-and-social-mobil...

Concretely, what do you think he's wrong about, and where is the data supporting your claims?

Re:The Despair of Poor White Americans by ajamesm on Saturday August 06, 2016 @04:52PM (#12239871)
Because the parent comment made the original assertion, and that's how the game works. "The earth is flat, prove me wrong!" no thanks.

Also, your second link is literally 642 pages, please point to the relevant part.

Re:The Despair of Poor White Americans by yummyfajitas on Saturday August 06, 2016 @05:03PM (#12239916)
The second link is the American housing survey, and it describes in detail a huge number of qualities of housing.

For example (table 2-2, page 48), 2.75% of poor households have a sagging roof. 66% of poor households (table 2-3, page 50) have at least 2 rooms/person and 94% have at least 1 room/person. 3.5% (table 2-4, page 52) lack a complete kitchen.

I don't know of any single characteristic to cite to prove that the conditions of poor people's housing are good; but whatever specific characteristic you want info on, you can probably find it in that document.

Re:The Despair of Poor White Americans by protomyth on Sunday August 07, 2016 @10:48PM (#12245176)
Just a statistical note: infant mortality is accounted for differently in many countries. Due to how the US counts it, parts of Europe and other countries will often have a lower number. You would think it would be apples to apples, but it's not.
Re:The Despair of Poor White Americans by twblalock on Saturday August 06, 2016 @04:31PM (#12239759)
Your article does not explain why the infant mortality rate is so high there. I suspect that the behavior of people in that community, which the article states includes high rates of violence, including violence against children, is the primary cause of infant and non-infant mortality. You could build a world-class hospital in the middle of that community, and give away health care for free, and that community would still have high rates of mortality.

> I don't know if you've looked at how much gov't assistance is paying out, but it's not enough to live on.

Clearly it is, because these people don't have jobs and are able to afford housing, cars, TVs, Playstations, etc. How else are they paying for these things? Do you think they stole them? Clearly, the money they receive from the government is enough to live on. Maybe not enough to live comfortably, but enough.

Re:The Despair of Poor White Americans by ajamesm on Saturday August 06, 2016 @04:45PM (#12239831)
Oh, you "suspect" that. How conclusive! Look at the data, and quit the horseshit about "these people" and their misguided priorities.

Food deserts. Lead paint poisoning. Lack of access to healthcare.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/editorial/bs-ed-hea...

"Take, for instance, Sharlene Adams who recently needed a blood pressure cuff. To buy one required no less than four bus rides, a stop at her doctor's office for his signature, a visit to two different pharmacies and a side trip to borrow money to make the required co-pay. The 55-year-old eventually got her hands on the $40 item in East Baltimore 5 1/2 hours after starting on her quest, the Maryland students documented."

Re:The Despair of Poor White Americans by yummyfajitas on Saturday August 06, 2016 @04:53PM (#12239876)
Lack of access to healthcare actually probably has very little effect. See figure 8:

https://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=2513561

Or see the Oregon experiment: https://www.nber.org/oregon/

Food deserts are actually the result of people's consumption choices - poor folks choose not to buy healthy food, so no one sells it to them. Making healthy food available does not change this behavior.

http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordpress/giving-people-ac...

Re:The Despair of Poor White Americans by ajamesm on Saturday August 06, 2016 @05:09PM (#12239949)
proximity to good food is necessary, but not sufficient, for healthy meals. People's consumption choices are also informed by (for example) whether they have the skills to cook the food that's available to them
Re:The Despair of Poor White Americans by twblalock on Saturday August 06, 2016 @04:54PM (#12239882)
There is plenty of data, in the article you linked, demonstrating that the behavior and priorities of these people are indeed misguided and violent. That's not what I suspect, that's what I know, and there is no shortage of data to back this up.

The thing I suspect is that the violence these people visit on themselves contributes more to their situation than lack of access to government services. I didn't say that more government services wouldn't help at all.

By the way, the Baltimore Sun article you cited is not about poor white people. It is about poor urban blacks in West Baltimore. That's not really relevant to this discussion, because blacks have faced enslavement and discrimination for centuries in this country. Discrimination against blacks, especially in hiring practices, has helped the poor white people we are talking about. Having to now compete against non-whites for jobs is a significant component of the poor white anger in this country, although many don't want to admit that.

Re:The Despair of Poor White Americans by jmorphy88 on Saturday August 06, 2016 @05:44PM (#12240063)
> But maybe we shouldn't feel sorry for these people, who grew up in the richest country in the world blah blah blah ...

So, whites deserve nothing from the institutions of their own country, except the "privilege" to be permanently tainted by a kind of Original Sin, and neglected in favor of literally every other ethnic group? Got it.

Re:The Despair of Poor White Americans by twblalock on Saturday August 06, 2016 @05:49PM (#12240072)
I didn't say anything remotely like that.
Re:The Despair of Poor White Americans by jmorphy88 on Saturday August 06, 2016 @05:57PM (#12240088)
Sure you did. Your third and fourth paragraphs essentially say, "These people, by virtue of being white Americans, do not deserve help from our country's institutions, because they are evil. Everyone else on earth is more deserving of help, and therefore, our country should give money to foreigners instead of its own people."

And people wonder where working-class rage comes from...

Re:The Despair of Poor White Americans by twblalock on Saturday August 06, 2016 @06:22PM (#12240157)
You're way off.

First of all, I said that these people already get plenty of help, and are not entitled to even more help.

Second, I did not say that "everyone else on Earth" was deserving of help. I said that some people are, because they are poorer than the Americans we are talking about.

Third, I did not say that our country should give money to anyone. I said that I would prefer to give my money to the poorest people in the world, and they are not Americans.

Fourth, I never said that anyone was evil. I did not even imply it.

I suspect you are intentionally making an uncharitable interpretation of my words, because no reasonable person would interpret them in such a twisted way.

Re:The Despair of Poor White Americans by jmorphy88 on Saturday August 06, 2016 @08:28PM (#12240507)
Fair enough, not trying to put words in your mouth, but here's the thing: the "white privilege" narrative that you rely on here IS actually a way of declaring a group of people as being morally unworthy. Granted you didn't use the word "evil" but if a group is permanently tarred with the accusation that their group interests are not legitimate and never will be, it's not a stretch to suggest that this group is being accused of a kind of eternal "Original Sin" from which they can never be cleansed.

And anyway, it's clear from your explanation that if these people were not white, you might have some sympathy for them. How else are we to interpret statements like: "they cannot point to any injustices visited upon them as an excuse for their current state of affairs" and that "these people have nothing to offer to anyone" a few lines after you elucidate how the US Govt did nothing to protect American manufacturing jobs? What exactly do foreign manual laborers "have to offer" that white Americans don't, aside from being cheaper?

Re:The Despair of Poor White Americans by twblalock on Saturday August 06, 2016 @09:28PM (#12240656)
> the "white privilege" narrative that you rely on here IS actually a way of declaring a group of people as being morally unworthy.

No, it isn't. It is simply a recognition that some people are treated better than others because of their race. It says nothing about the legitimacy of a group's interests, and it certainly has nothing to do with the concepts of evil or sin.

Re:The Despair of Poor White Americans by jmorphy88 on Sunday August 07, 2016 @03:43AM (#12241411)
Well, the very idea of group interests MEANS that group will treat some people better than others. So, are white people allowed to do that, or not?