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Re:Americans Don't Care About Prison Phone Exploitation, Say... by kalleboo on Saturday August 06, 2016 @12:00PM (#12238541)
> Prison is a punishment

In some other countries prison is seen as a place for rehabilitation or at worst a way to protect the public from unstable individuals.

Re:Americans Don't Care About Prison Phone Exploitation, Say... by leesalminen on Saturday August 06, 2016 @12:06PM (#12238569)
Exactly. It should be this way in USA as well. It sickens me how people shrug off any problems at correctional facilities as "it's punishment". We're only creating more problems for society with that thought process.
Re:Americans Don't Care About Prison Phone Exploitation, Say... by shawn-butler on Saturday August 06, 2016 @01:43PM (#12239018)
Nothing is ever that simple as the people of Norway are finding with Anders Behring Breivik who as far as I can tell has converted to Nazism and is getting a bachelor's degree in political science from University of Oslo after murdering 70 people.

As I recall a couple years ago he made public complaints that the prison had not yet given him a PlayStation 3 to replace his current PlayStation 2, because it offers more suitable games to his playing style. Probably has it now.

Punishment should fit the crime is the model in the US but since the 90s ever since sentencing became a political football that model has broken down.

I find that rehabilitation is a word that comes easy to people who have never been victims of an actual crime. Prison time should never be population control/engineering but it should be a deterrent.

Re:Americans Don't Care About Prison Phone Exploitation, Say... by c0nducktr on Saturday August 06, 2016 @01:52PM (#12239057)
Do you feel that Anders Breivik would not have murdered those children if the Norwegian prison system was more punitive?
Re:Americans Don't Care About Prison Phone Exploitation, Say... by shawn-butler on Saturday August 06, 2016 @01:54PM (#12239067)
I believe he is beyond rehabilitation.
Re:Americans Don't Care About Prison Phone Exploitation, Say... by pop8row9 on Monday August 08, 2016 @12:44PM (#12249060)
I believe that no one is beyond rehabilitation, with the right conditions. Further, I believe this belief to be fundamental to any functionally human rights-oriented, pan-state democracy.
Re:Americans Don't Care About Prison Phone Exploitation, Say... by tamana on Saturday August 06, 2016 @03:29PM (#12239505)
That wasn't the question.
Re:Americans Don't Care About Prison Phone Exploitation, Say... by shawn-butler on Saturday August 06, 2016 @07:59PM (#12240443)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterfactual_conditional

Some people believe they help people imagine creative solutions.

I find counterfactuals, especially in history, to be devoid of any meaning and used by pseudo-intellectuals who don't really want to pursue the hard work of finding actual causality.

Re:Americans Don't Care About Prison Phone Exploitation, Say... by yongjik on Saturday August 06, 2016 @08:17PM (#12240483)
Huh? Actual causality is meaningless without counterfactuals. "Hitler caused Holocaust" means that if Hitler wasn't there, Holocaust wouldn't have happened.
Re:Americans Don't Care About Prison Phone Exploitation, Say... by shawn-butler on Sunday August 07, 2016 @01:54PM (#12242888)
Not really but sort of. Counterfactual historiography at best represents a sort of "reproducibility" for historians. They can't conduct experiments on the past.

So, when someone asserts "Hitler caused Holocaust" some enterprising graduate student comes along and writes a thesis on Hitler's willing executioners and argues counterfactually that if Hitler wasn't there, Holocaust still happens.

That doesn't mean at all that Hitler did not cause Holocaust or that the "eliminationist antisemitism" German culture caused Holocaust. I wish you had chose a less value-laden example.

Re:Americans Don't Care About Prison Phone Exploitation, Say... by leesalminen on Saturday August 06, 2016 @03:55PM (#12239609)
I don't know much about Breivik, but would venture to guess that killing 70 people is a result of severe mental illness.

Using prisons as a warehouse for the mentally ill is another problem. These people should be handled differently than general population in a prison.

IMO, you go to prison to reflect on your choices, work on underlying issues and come out a stronger person. It's _very_ hard to do so with mentally ill roommates, rape, gangs, etc all around you.

I am a "victim" of an actual crime. My younger brother was hit by a car crossing the street. The driver was distracted and going >10 mph over the limit in a residential area. This individual had no insurance. No lawsuit was ever filed.

Re:Americans Don't Care About Prison Phone Exploitation, Say... by nitrogen on Saturday August 06, 2016 @06:10PM (#12240121)
Honestly why should it bother anyone if prisoners are treated well? A video game costs nothing compared to other costs of incarceration. The only thing that matters is that people can be rehabilitated if possible, and isolated if not.

And the last people who should define punishments are victims of crimes, because our own instincts for revenge are wholly miscalibrated for modern society. I've had thousands of dollars of irreplaceable equipment stolen from me, some of which I designed myself, and yet I rationally accept that the perpetrators (never caught) shouldn't be strung up in the proverbial town square for all to see.

Re:Americans Don't Care About Prison Phone Exploitation, Say... by rayiner on Saturday August 06, 2016 @01:39PM (#12238995)
I think prison should be for rehabilitation, but I think it's a bigger departure from how we do things than you appreciate. For example, should a woman who kills her abusive husband be imprisoned? From a purely rehabilitative point of view, the answer is no. There is zero risk of recidivism there. But even most people who think prison should be about rehabilitation probably have trouble with the idea that someone should simply go free under those circumstances. I.e. they believe that prison should be at least a little bit about punishment.
Re:Americans Don't Care About Prison Phone Exploitation, Say... by int_19h on Saturday August 06, 2016 @06:52PM (#12240249)
It's interesting to put this in historical context.

Until about two centuries ago, it was not all that common to imprison people as a punishment. It was mainly used to confine those awaiting trial, and to induce compliance (contempt of court, debtor prisons etc). Being convicted of an actual crime generally warranted some form or combination of fines, public shaming, corporal punishment, banishment, or execution.

Then, during the 17th century, the society had started to increasingly reject torture in general, and death penalty for relatively minor crimes (theft etc). Conveniently, that's also when European countries acquired sparsely populated lands that they wanted to settle ASAP, and so penal colonies were born, and replaced a significant chunk of previous death penalty convictions. That system eventually inspired the creation of proper prisons as we know them today.

Ironically, if you read about the prominent people behind the movement that made it happen, most of them subscribed to "prison as repentance" theory, rather than punishment. It's why it was seen as so progressive and radical for its day.

We all know how well that worked out.

Re:Americans Don't Care About Prison Phone Exploitation, Say... by jacquesm on Saturday August 06, 2016 @03:36PM (#12239543)
> But even most people who think prison should be about rehabilitation probably have trouble with the idea that someone should simply go free under those circumstances.

Not in my experience. But that's just an anecdote and no doubt there is a lot of data backing your assertion. I also suspect that this is different for different countries.