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Re:Forget Comcast. Here’s a DIY Approach to Internet Access by futuremeats on Thursday August 04, 2016 @03:50PM (#12227994)
I share the confusion. Isn't the municipality just* acting as a reseller for telefonica?
Re:Forget Comcast. Here’s a DIY Approach to Internet Access by crispyambulance on Thursday August 04, 2016 @04:09PM (#12228095)
Its a good question... in the article it states that Guifi was able to get a "peering" connection.

Internet service providers have to connect to each other somehow and this is done at IXP (internet exchange points: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_exchange_point )-- basically a huge building where separate providers can come together and exchange traffic.

I imagine that a peering connection in such a facility requires a heroic amount of maneuvering around 800 lb gorilla companies, but it certainly is possible if one has enough traffic and money.

Re:Forget Comcast. Here’s a DIY Approach to Internet Access by calgoo on Thursday August 04, 2016 @04:57PM (#12228422)
The Guifi network has a connection to the local internet exchange CATNIX. That connection is paid for by the association exo.cat, which is supported by members paying a bi-yearly fee.

Edit: grammar

Re:Forget Comcast. Here’s a DIY Approach to Internet Access by devicenull on Thursday August 04, 2016 @07:49PM (#12229245)
Peering doesn't get you to the internet at large though, it just gets you to the people connected to the particular exchange (and they're not usually willing to relay your traffic to other networks)
Re:Forget Comcast. Here’s a DIY Approach to Internet Access by crispyambulance on Friday August 05, 2016 @12:44PM (#12233745)
Now I am really mixed up. How else would an independent ISP get to "the internet at large"? Isn't that what a peering agreement is all about at an IXP?
Re:Forget Comcast. Here’s a DIY Approach to Internet Access by devicenull on Saturday August 06, 2016 @04:58PM (#12239900)
They'd have to buy transit from a provider. Peering is connectivity between two ISPs. Transit is connectivity between you and the rest of the internet.
Re:Forget Comcast. Here’s a DIY Approach to Internet Access by crispyambulance on Monday August 08, 2016 @01:04PM (#12249216)
There are perhaps missing details, but Guifi seems to have "become" a provider by having "enough" customers. They got a peering connection.

There's a threshold beyond which peering make more sense than transit... (http://packetpushers.net/transit-vs-peering-makes-sense/).

Re:Forget Comcast. Here’s a DIY Approach to Internet Access by wmf on Thursday August 04, 2016 @04:35PM (#12228258)
As usual, the devil is in the "just". Typical US $50/month broadband service includes about $1/month worth of wholesale bandwidth; the rest goes into maintaining the last ~10 miles and profit. There may be room for considerable efficiency gains.
Re:Forget Comcast. Here’s a DIY Approach to Internet Access by amazon_not on Thursday August 04, 2016 @05:51PM (#12228733)
I'd sure be interested in what those efficiency gains could be. The ISP business isn't exactly a gold mine and margins are pretty thin. It's only at (massive) scale that things start to look better.

I'm sure it'd be much easier if people just moved into their closest DC. That last mile really is such a drag.

Re:Forget Comcast. Here’s a DIY Approach to Internet Access by Spooky23 on Thursday August 04, 2016 @06:19PM (#12228862)
No way. ISPs that own infrastructure are capital intensive business that print money over long time horizons.

Their operating margins are like 97% profit, and depending on the maturity of the network, the costs on debt service are something like 25% to 90% of costs. It's a business that generates consistent long term profit and cash flow.

Re:Forget Comcast. Here’s a DIY Approach to Internet Access by amazon_not on Thursday August 04, 2016 @07:13PM (#12229107)
The trick is to both come up with the money and survive over long time horizons. Neither is that easy.
Re:Forget Comcast. Here’s a DIY Approach to Internet Access by njharman on Thursday August 04, 2016 @06:47PM (#12228991)
In the last 10mi of course. Don't dig cable, don't push tv, have members buy and deploy the mesh network. Also don't pay lobbyists, don't pay for advertising, installers Cust support, CEO salaries, etc.

Cable companies make bank btw.

Re:Forget Comcast. Here’s a DIY Approach to Internet Access by amazon_not on Thursday August 04, 2016 @07:12PM (#12229097)
You ever tried building a wireless mesh network?
Re:Forget Comcast. Here’s a DIY Approach to Internet Access by CyberDildonics on Thursday August 04, 2016 @06:06PM (#12228809)
> The ISP business isn't exactly a gold mine and margins are pretty thin.

Whoa, who told you that? Lets think about this in simplified terms, if you could run a coax cable to houses around you without caring about it being buried or hidden and start earning $50-$100 a month would you do it? I would be doing nothing else until I collapsed. I would go up and down the street with cable spools of cable putting posts in the ground to split it to people's houses. In one long day you could be earning what you would get from a minimum wage job. In a week you would be middle class. In a month you would live like a lawyer, in two you would live like a doctor, and you would never have to work again to make the same amount of money. Gold mines don't even do this well.

Re:Forget Comcast. Here’s a DIY Approach to Internet Access by toomuchtodo on Thursday August 04, 2016 @06:13PM (#12228842)
You are entirely wrong.

---

Building networks is, to no one's surprise, expensive. Financial analysts last year estimated that Google had to spend $84 million to build a fiber network that passed 149,000 homes in Kansas City, with the cost per home at $500 to $674. That figure did not include additional costs for actually connecting each home that requests service. A national Google Fiber build out passing 15 percent of US homes would cost $11 billion a year for five years, Wall Street analysts have estimated.

Montgomery discussed the challenge of finding what some people call "patient capital," or investors who are willing to put money into companies that might take five or 10 years to make a big profit.

"Costs are fixed. You're going pay your staff and maintenance people whether you have one customer or 10,000. All your costs are basically going to be the same," he said. "For a fiber network, you need to reach about 30 percent of the local market within a couple of years, or you're going to go out of business."

---

"One big reason we lack Internet competition: Starting an ISP is really hard

Creating an ISP? You'll need millions of dollars, patience, and lots of lawyers."

http://arstechnica.com/business/2014/04/one-big-reason-we-la...

Re:Forget Comcast. Here’s a DIY Approach to Internet Access by Spooky23 on Thursday August 04, 2016 @06:23PM (#12228879)
"Patient capital" is desperate for moderate returns over time. Ask any pension or endowment investor -- they are screwed now because there is no way for their funds to earn yield.

The reason AT&T was able to gobble up the entire country in the 20th century was in part their ability to sell convertible securities that delivered premium returns with low/moderate risk.

Re:Forget Comcast. Here’s a DIY Approach to Internet Access by toomuchtodo on Thursday August 04, 2016 @06:35PM (#12228937)
I thought it was the billions of dollars AT&T took from the federal government, as recently as two years ago (although traditional financing played a part):

http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/ATT-Takes-Billions-in-FCC...

Re:Forget Comcast. Here’s a DIY Approach to Internet Access by Spooky23 on Thursday August 04, 2016 @07:32PM (#12229173)
Sorry I was unclear. I'm talking about the old, 20th century AT&T.
Re:Forget Comcast. Here’s a DIY Approach to Internet Access by stvswn on Thursday August 04, 2016 @07:15PM (#12229115)
24/7 operations team at the NOC. Billing. Collections. Technical support. Physical support. Lawyers. Local easements. Sales and Advertising. Cost of capital. Goes on and on.

If you're a cable company who already built all of that, it's marginally very profitable to layer on internet service.

If you think that you can go run a coax cable to someone's house and start collecting a monthly check from them, and collect routinely, without a) billing issues, b) collections issues, c) service outages, etc. etc. -- I mean, maybe for 3 neighbors it would work. But not at scale.

Re:Forget Comcast. Here’s a DIY Approach to Internet Access by CyberDildonics on Saturday August 06, 2016 @12:35PM (#12238698)
I think you completely misunderstood my point.

Btw 'at scale' all the overhead you mentioned decreases. I doubt it costs $70 a month per customer. You see issues constantly, but how big is the customer base? 100k? That's 7 million a month. With bandwidth costs of around $1 per person I'm going to guess there is a lot of room for profit.