News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:My Interviews with Amazon by jc4p on Thursday July 28, 2016 @12:39PM (#12181335)
I have just under ten years of experience and lead teams of developers, Amazon routinely spams me asking me to do 120 min online coding tasks before even a phone screen too. It's just fucking disrespectful of my time, to be honest.
Re:My Interviews with Amazon by wernercd on Thursday July 28, 2016 @01:11PM (#12181539)
I'm at a new job where the "old team" of two developers is being replaced by 5 devs... the old team had ~15 years of experience and can't code their way out of a wet paper bag.

Not saying anything about YOU... experience is important... but 15 years experience doesn't mean 15 years of good experience or lack of bad habits.

Re:My Interviews with Amazon by riot504 on Thursday July 28, 2016 @01:57PM (#12181884)
Only in programming would this type of statement hold any merit. I was an air traffic controller for 10 years prior to becoming a data scientist. Experience is more than just being able to code (or do your specific job), it brings a wealth of knowledge you have to yet notice or realize.
Re:My Interviews with Amazon by nilkn on Thursday July 28, 2016 @04:17PM (#12182829)
Just the other day I interviewed someone with ~15 years of experience who struggled quite a bit with FizzBuzz. We ultimately decided to pass.

Last week, I interviewed someone about to complete a master's degree from Georgia Tech who also could barely do FizzBuzz.

What should we be doing to identify people who fail FizzBuzz but we should actually be hiring? Honestly the bar for our initial phone screens is very low, and yet experienced and well-educated people still manage to fail, sometimes spectacularly. FizzBuzz is one of the most important questions we ask because of this phenomenon.

Re:My Interviews with Amazon by riot504 on Thursday July 28, 2016 @04:32PM (#12182926)
I learned to program on the job, I have masters in economic (econometrics focused, which I was hired), but I am not sure how someone can't make there way through FizzBuzz. I am sure mine wouldn't be the best code written, particularly during an interview, but I could make it through the test.

Based on my experience as an air traffic controller which requires more tests than I care to state, when we would transfer facilities we were given oral tests to gauge our experience. We would mark down the areas deficient that needed review and check areas off where knowledge was deemed satisfactory. There would be zero air traffic controllers if we dismissed candidates answering one question wrong regardless of simplicity.

Re:My Interviews with Amazon by serge2k on Thursday July 28, 2016 @03:43PM (#12182629)
> Experience is more than just being able to code

Necessary, but not sufficient. If you can't code you're worthless as a developer. You can be a great coder, but if your other skills are poor you aren't worth a senior engineer salary.

Re:My Interviews with Amazon by derefr on Thursday July 28, 2016 @04:52PM (#12183059)
I've had points in my programming career where I felt completely burnt out. I would open up a text-editor and just stare at it. I didn't want to create.

But, separately from programming, I absolutely love teaching/mentoring. I found that, if I was helping someone with a programming problem, I could code just fine while burnt out. As long as someone else was doing "the programming"—the part involving wanting to create something and actually typing it—I was fine with them "borrowing" my knowledge and expertise in the form of doing all their design work, finding libraries and API functions for them, correcting their syntax errors, doing all their debugging, and basically every other part of programming that isn't typing words.

If someone handed me a college intern—or, hell, even a really passionate and patient elementary schooler—to serve as my "assistant", then I could make them appear to be a great programmer. If you hired me to wander around a team and pair-program with everyone, I could have a multiplicative effect on that team's productivity. But, by myself, I wouldn't be able to code for beans.

What do you call me?

Re:My Interviews with Amazon by mjevans on Thursday July 28, 2016 @06:36PM (#12183717)
What (lowest tier) management material SHOULD (IMO) be.

You might still need someone above you to function as the team's abstraction layer to the company at large, but it sounds like you'd be a great leader among the actual workers.

Re:My Interviews with Amazon by serge2k on Thursday July 28, 2016 @07:20PM (#12183923)
Justify to me why you shouldn't be replaced by someone who has comparable skills, but doesn't rely entirely on pair programming?

I can't hand you an important task and expect it to get done unless I give you a second resource?

You are talking about burnout. Would you really walk into an interview and respond to a coding question with "Oh, you'll have to write with me directing because I only pair program"?

I'm going to stand by my earlier statement. Being able to code is a necessary skill for a senior developer. Or any developer really.

Re:My Interviews with Amazon by derefr on Thursday July 28, 2016 @11:54PM (#12184920)
1. Why are you assuming that my job description would/should be "engineer"? Why not, say, QA lead?

2. Why hand me the task? Why not hand someone else the task, and I'll wander in and make sure they get it done twice as quickly? Why does everyone need to be modellable as a task-queue that atomic problem-statements can be dropped into?

You don't expect, say, your office manager to program; but you do expect that, by hiring an office manager, more programming will get done, because now your programmers aren't running out to buy drinks for the fridge and toilet paper.

3. Remember that I did say that I could get work done by pair-programming with an intern, not an employee. The phrase "second resource" implies that you're imagining yourself handing me someone who you could get Hard Problems done on their own. My point was that, with a few people like me around, you could mostly just "hire" people (often for free!) who have no idea how to get Hard Problems—or even Regular Problems—done, and me and my type of person would guide them and the work would get done in the process.

This is usually known, in the trades, as an apprentice system. Apprentices do all the "work", you know. They're the hands that build most things that get built. Masters just stand there guiding those hands.

Re:My Interviews with Amazon by serge2k on Friday July 29, 2016 @04:08PM (#12189585)
> Why are you assuming that my job description would/should be "engineer"? Why not, say, QA lead?

Because that's what this entire conversation is about.

Re:My Interviews with Amazon by msie on Thursday July 28, 2016 @06:24PM (#12183655)
Code Midwife?
Re:My Interviews with Amazon by riot504 on Thursday July 28, 2016 @03:55PM (#12182708)
No one is saying the experienced individuals cannot code. Based on OP's comment I am going to assume he/she is young based on my personal experience hearing these types of comments throughout my career. They stem from only knowing one way of approaching a task, to which they respond negatively to anything different, particularly if it is outdated. Instead they should seek to learn from the experienced individuals and understand why they are solving the problems in that particular manner.
Re:My Interviews with Amazon by Bartweiss on Thursday July 28, 2016 @01:57PM (#12181885)
I totally get why someone would push coding tasks even on experienced devs - if you're meeting someone without a recommendation then history doesn't guarantee value.

But it still seems weird to push heavy coding sessions without even speaking to the candidate, and that seems weirder the more experienced people are. You might assume that a new grad doesn't care what work they're doing and can just be interviewed for a job in "software", but why throw somebody with 15 years behind them into a funnel without even talking about what it's a funnel for?

Re:My Interviews with Amazon by btilly on Thursday July 28, 2016 @05:18PM (#12183248)
The classic phrase describing this is, There is a world of difference between 10 years of experience, and 1 year of experience 10 times.
Re:My Interviews with Amazon by vonmoltke on Thursday July 28, 2016 @01:51PM (#12181843)
So, what were they doing for 15 years and why weren't they replaced sooner?
Re:My Interviews with Amazon by wernercd on Thursday July 28, 2016 @07:09PM (#12183864)
Basically the company started expanding and their code base started falling apart at the seams.

Two coders that each had "silos" with wedges to keep the two sides communicating together. One did web side - ordering, registration, etc on a Webform MVC customized hybrid. The other did floor applications.

New customer? New database, website, etc. Sql statements? "If company a then select * from blah where field like '{text}';" everywhere. Why select *? Because the different code bases diverged... why like/text? Because sql injection doesn't exist. Almost everything text fields... 2 wide inventory fields that house more than 99 items... 10 wide inventory fields that house 2 items...

I will have some posts for TheDailyWTF once I get my feet a bit more wet...

As to why it took so long? They were able to keep it running with duck tape and bubble gum... once the company started expanding, the better of the two programmers knew they couldn't keep up and left earlier this year. The other is due gone soon... Good guy, but... unwilling to accept that his code is shit.

Re:My Interviews with Amazon by vonmoltke on Thursday July 28, 2016 @11:43PM (#12184899)
We probably disagree, but to me "code is shit" and "the company started expanding and their code base started falling apart at the seams" is a far cry from "can't code their way out of a wet paper bag". Sounds like they knew enough to patch together a system that made your company money for years. To me, that puts them squarely in the middle of "can't code their way out of a wet paper bag" and "good engineer I would trust to design my systems".
Re:My Interviews with Amazon by wernercd on Friday July 29, 2016 @09:06AM (#12186540)
I'm not super experienced but I read enough to know bad code when I see it.

  * No separation of UI/Code. WinForms in all it's glory.    
  * SELECT * in code behind. Never anything else.    
  * WHERE field LIKE '{}' - never 'where field ='. Always like.     
  * {} is a from text entry fields. Sql Injection? Sanitation? Boundaries? What's that?    
  * Separate code paths for different companies because each customer had their own unique stack that diverged - Database tables, Winforms, processes. IF Company A then SELECT * FROM DBA.dbo.TblA WHERE FieldA = '{}' ELSEIF Company B then SELECT * FROM DBD.dbo.TblB WHERE FieldB = '{}'... etc.    
  * Copy Pasta all the way down.    
  * Never used source control until New Guard arrived (me being newest developer).    
  * Test environment? Waste of time... Everything done against production. I saw the old programmer jack up a sql query resulting in a data restore, and I've been here less than two weeks.
You can argue that what they did "works"... but you can fix a car with duct tape... then wonder why the door flies off at 65mph.

Trust me (as much as you can trust a random guy on the interwebz)... Their code is shit. Not "I'm an artist and think your artistry is shit" shit... but every bad idea you can consider in coding shit.

Re:My Interviews with Amazon by vonmoltke on Friday July 29, 2016 @10:42AM (#12187128)
I'm not saying their code isn't shit, just that it is shit code that works (for some purposes at least). That is much different from not being able to generate code that works at all. I would say these guys can "code their way out of a wet paper bag". They will just make a royal mess doing it.
Re:My Interviews with Amazon by wernercd on Friday July 29, 2016 @10:52AM (#12187195)
I guess it's just a difference of terminology and/or nuance in terminology getting lost in "text". Hard to show sarcasm or "air quotes" in a text post :)
Re:My Interviews with Amazon by jc4p on Thursday July 28, 2016 @01:33PM (#12181719)
Yeah, definitely agreed. I just wanted to point out the person's "I opened the door to Amazon as a new dev" isn't purely limited to new devs perspectives.
Re:My Interviews with Amazon by twistedpair on Thursday July 28, 2016 @08:28PM (#12184295)
They only spam you? I've been called, on my desk phone 4 times in the last year by their head hunters. It seems no matter how many times I tell them no, they don't get the message.