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Re:The End of Gmane? by zeveb on Thursday July 28, 2016 @11:03AM (#12180635)
If so, it'd be the end of an era. Gmane has been a tremendous asset to the community for well over a decade; indeed, it feels as though it's always been there.

I suppose that it's one more nail in the coffin of NNTP. I really miss net news, but it probably wasn't possible for it to scale to support the entire world. It's sad, though: for a short time, all the interesting people in the world were able to communicate with one another.

Re:The End of Gmane? by Kadin on Thursday July 28, 2016 @05:02PM (#12183137)
Actually I think NNTP solved a bunch of problems that we didn't even know we had at the time, including scaling and funding.

NNTP servers were generally provided by your ISP, so ISPs built the capacity out as they added subscribers, and added groups based on the perceived interest. It wasn't especially difficult (and it's pretty trivial today) to offer all the "official" text-based newsgroups with a few days or weeks worth of retention; it only becomes a significant undertaking when you want to offer months of retention for binaries newsgroups.

Similarly, because the NNTP servers were basically a value-added ISP service, they were funded by subscriber fees. You never had a problem with a newsgroup suddenly getting popular and being unable to pay their own hosting fees, or suddenly tossing ads in order to pay the hosting bill, which is unfortunately common with webforums. And you don't have problems with a single server crashing and wiping out the history of a whole group. It's all pretty robust.

Architecturally, netnews was superior to web forums. Where it failed was in not having a good response to the spam problem. I think that had it not been for spam, people wouldn't have left NNTP for HTTP-hosted webforums nearly as quickly. But the decentralized nature of netnews meant there wasn't anyone who could quickly implement any of the myriad solutions that were proposed (cryptographic proof-of-work plus reputation systems probably would have cut down on the worst offenders).

My guess is that eventually, we'll reinvent something that's similar to NNTP but by another name (with the decentralization, server-server replication, gateways to other protocols, etc.), but it's been a long and unfortunate diversion in the meantime.

Re:The End of Gmane? by digi_owl on Thursday July 28, 2016 @05:45PM (#12183423)
I think a different issue was discoverability.

With web forums you fire a search term into a random crawler and it will likely barf up a url. With NNTP you had to configure the email client to point to the isp server, and then locate a relevant group for what you were interested in. And even then searching the whole archive was troublesome if not impossible.

I watched something similar play out with IRC. Once AJAX allowed random websites to offer chat services non-tech channels basically wasted away, as your random joe and jane just entered some url they were told, or read about in some glossy mag, and presto.

As for reinventing NNTP, i don't think there is any incentive any longer. Especially now that something as big as Reddit can just pay Amazon to scale the back end as large as they need.

Store and forward came to be before the net, and was used during the early net, because of narrow bandwidth.

Re:The End of Gmane? by derefr on Thursday July 28, 2016 @05:36PM (#12183367)
I don't know about that: the core conceit—of ISPs doing any sort of edge server hosting—is nearly dead itself. Email is nearly-entirely owned by megacorps, unencrypted (and therefore edge-cacheable) HTTP is dying, DNS is basically just Google and OpenDNS at this point... soon ISPs won't run any OSI-level-7 services at all. They won't need data-centers, just switches. I don't see that trend reversing.

And given that, you can't really have a store-and-forward edge-caching system that truly resembles NNTP. At most, you can get a hierarchical network like IRC.

Re:The End of Gmane? by dredmorbius on Thursday July 28, 2016 @10:51PM (#12184777)
Of all of these, DNS is the easist to address -- anyone can set up their own forarding nameserver pointing at the roots. Performance is pretty good.

Much as I distrust Google for anything these days, 8.8.8.8 / 8.8.4.4 offer a widespread advanced notice of domains tracking up the hit rates, and possible attacks.

Email, as STMP, after decades of nobel service really simply does deserve to die. It's far less about the mechanics of email user interfaces, for which there's a great deal of ink wasted, and much more on privacy -- encryption, metadata, and spam, probably as the three top concerns. Very nearly all the suggested replacements (SMS, various messaging systems, Facebook) have either those problems or those and the fatal condition of being proprietary silos.

The more I reflect on it the more the Web is close to what Usenet was, at least in some regards. Origins post messages, which may or may not die in short order (what's TTL for an Internet page now, a few months on average?). We're increasingly relying on sites such as the Internet Archive to actually provide a view-through-time at content.

What the web (and email, especially in mailing lists) lacks and has always lacked is a requirement to meet standards conformance. DDG "The Web is an error condition" and you'll find a far-too-true-to-be-good rant on that topic.

The loose-standards-anything-will-fly-nearly approach has allowed a great deal of flexibility in page design, but much of that is ultimately painful. I'm finding a much greater appreciation for straight-up HTML 1.0 formatted pages.

A huge part of the problem is exceptionally crappy entity styling defaults. If browsers presented pages sanely (at various resolutions), much of the B-Arc profession of Web design would simply cease to exist. And this would be a wonderful thing.

A simplified markup, acceptance criteria (and rejections for failed formats), cache-and-foreard, client-determined-formatting, security, and either a universal content syndication or UBI type compensation model might address other issues.

I'm getting the sense of some interesting possiblities out there.

Re:The End of Gmane? by jrnvs on Friday July 29, 2016 @09:19AM (#12186590)
> DDG "The Web is an error condition" and you'll find a far-too-true-to-be-good rant on that topic.

Actually, when I DDG this phrase, the only result is your comment in this thread.

Re:The End of Gmane? by erlehmann_ on Friday July 29, 2016 @09:24AM (#12186613)
“The web is an error condition” probably refers to this article: http://deirdre.net/programming-sucks-why-i-quit/

> One day, I walked into the break room and heard a coworker say, “The Web is an error condition,” referring to the deplorable state of code out on the Web. I think that was the end of the end for me, because it just depressed me. It depressed me not because it was untrue, but because it was so perfectly true.

> Honestly, I miss the days when Netscape Navigator would just halt rendering in the middle of your page, saying, “No, I will not parse any more of your shit until you fix it.”

> Then IE came out for free. Suddenly, the game of web browsers changed from paid apps to supported by advertising and search revenues. The only way to get users to use your browser (and thus get more money to develop with) was to parse all the shit you used to reject.

> The web became a co-evolution of crap and trying to render crap. (It’s gotten more complicated since then, but because there’s been a habit of rendering crap, no one suddenly wants to stop.)

Re:The End of Gmane? by dredmorbius on Friday July 29, 2016 @11:43PM (#12191521)
Yes, thanks.

The Android is also an error condition. Trying to copy/paste and maintain state whilst composing anything complex generally fails.

Re:The End of Gmane? by digi_owl on Thursday July 28, 2016 @05:50PM (#12183457)
Pretty much. Around where i live, power companies have started offering fiber services. But they just pull the actual fiber along their existing power lines. Just about all of them has teamed up with a third party that handle not just ISP, but also TV and VOIP.
Re:The End of Gmane? by wtbob on Thursday July 28, 2016 @09:03PM (#12184425)
> Actually I think NNTP solved a bunch of problems that we didn't even know we had at the time, including scaling and funding.

Yeah, but think of the social scaling issues. You simply can't have every single person interested in e.g. American football reading & commenting on alt.games.football.

News was indeed a far superior architecture & experience to web forums — so long as the userbase was relatively small.

Re:The End of Gmane? by dredmorbius on Thursday July 28, 2016 @10:56PM (#12184790)
I've shot around estimates of the size of Usenet with some old Usenetters (of whom I was one, though only marginally active).

Gene "Spaff" Spafford thinks 50k - 500k users ~1988 - 1994 is probably ballpark accurate. Peter da Silva notes that in 1990 he was the most active user on Usenet ... and under another handle, the 3rd most active. Microsoft did some early 2000s research turning up low-single-digit million distinct user IDs IIRC (I've posted on this previously).

So, yeah, it was small.

Organising people into groups, even ad-hoc, from which exceptionally good messages might be shared to others, might be one way of handling scaling. Clustersizes ranging from a total size within Dunbar ranges, to a 1/9/90 split giving the 10% active users a Dunbar cap (about 300 - 3,000 users per cluster) might work.

I agree that 1990 Usenet in 2016 would be a fatal mistake.

Re:The End of Gmane? by rakoo on Saturday July 30, 2016 @12:57PM (#12193707)
How could alt.games.football not scale, and /r/football scale ? I wouldn't expect a single server, or even a single network host the whole conversation about football in the world. So you'd have reddit.com's alt.games.football, facebook's alt.games.football and so on. Or, more probably, brand new hierarchies like com.facebook.games.football and com.reddit.games.football. The nice thing is that they'd all have the same interface and the same protocol so they are both easily accessible and easily archivable.
Re:The End of Gmane? by rmc on Wednesday August 03, 2016 @04:02AM (#12216386)
> How could alt.games.football not scale, and /r/football scale ?

Upvoting. NNTP didn't have it. Reddit does. This allows a reader to see the top posts.

Re:The End of Gmane? by gwbrooke on Friday July 29, 2016 @05:10AM (#12185702)
Well managed servers don't have spam. I used

http://news.individual.net/

for a while and I don't recall getting any spam, ever.

Re:The End of Gmane? by jandrese on Thursday July 28, 2016 @01:06PM (#12181508)
A NNTP service could definitely still work, but it would have to be a lot more locked down. I really hate that the alternative is web forums which are always stuck with a small fraction of the functionality of any good news reader and get bogged down easily if they get popular and never have a good search feature.
Re:The End of Gmane? by snaky on Thursday July 28, 2016 @02:53PM (#12182292)
NNTP is just the right abstraction to wrap any discussion-based thing. It would be nice to have just nntp://news.ycombinator.com, nntp://reddit.com and so on instead of bunch of incompatible APIs actually. It's like beautiful Perl's TIE [1] where you wrap an object in it and it exposed as regular scalar, array, hash or filehandle instead of 'an object' with it's own methods users need to learn to use it.

I think Gmane 2.0, if it ever will be born, would have a mechanism of plugins, that allow easy wrapping any web-forum in it, by writing a little template describing the layout of pages like 'this is topic, this is message body' and so on. And the crawler to use the plugins, of course.

[1] http://perldoc.perl.org/perltie.html

Re:The End of Gmane? by jandrese on Thursday July 28, 2016 @04:18PM (#12182835)
A version of NNTP where groups were automatically moderated and strong controls were in place to weed out spammers and trolls could work. The moderation would have to be baked into the core of the protocol and not some weird half measure bolted onto the side however. Once a community is large enough you either moderate it or you get another /b/.
Re:The End of Gmane? by snaky on Thursday July 28, 2016 @07:37PM (#12184015)
NNTP is transport protocol, orthogonal to moderation - like HN or Reddit or any other site moderation to HTTP.
Re:The End of Gmane? by ArkyBeagle on Thursday July 28, 2016 @04:49PM (#12183043)
Spam filtering works reasonably well now, for any of the free services. Trolls? Ignore 'em.
Re:The End of Gmane? by jcranmer on Thursday July 28, 2016 @05:13PM (#12183215)
NNTP is a very nice, simple protocol to implement, both server and client-side.

Well, except for the mess that is RFC 822. At least NNTP decided to go 8-bit safe eons ago, so you just have to shove everything in UTF-8 and you can screw RFC 2047 in the face.

Re:The End of Gmane? by dredmorbius on Thursday July 28, 2016 @10:37PM (#12184737)
What specific issues with 822?
Re:The End of Gmane? by jcranmer on Thursday July 28, 2016 @11:01PM (#12184805)
Major issues:

* RFC 2047 is a pain in the butt

* Handling attachments can be difficult (particularly the inability to safely add binary data)

* The display name/address is both painful in terms of syntax.

* CFWS in general (you can tell who's written an email client by their reaction to the letters CFWS)

* Header fields in general have way too lenient handling, so there's no way to, e.g., guarantee non-ASCII handling (RFC 2047 needs to be handled differently in the Subject: header than from the From: header, and the Content-Type: header does something else entirely).

* Mandatory line-length limits, which means you need to be able to insert line breaks in however you encode custom header values

* No way to get attachments without the body or vice versa

* All metadata needs to be shoved into a header (see above about i18n, line length, and CFWS)

Re:The End of Gmane? by dredmorbius on Friday July 29, 2016 @12:51AM (#12185075)
What would you change given a greenfield opportunity?

What would you add? Remove?

Why?

For myself: the basic RF282 concept of sender, subject, recipient (or newsgroup), date, and references, plus body, seem reasonable.

How best to take these to present capabilities (and needs) is another question.