News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by adamnemecek on Thursday July 21, 2016 @11:35PM (#12141567)
I feel like people are realizing that exceptions were a bad idea. They are kind of like gotos.
Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by IshKebab on Friday July 22, 2016 @04:07AM (#12142315)
Yeah finally. The problem with exceptions is that you lose context about where the error occurred, and you really need to know that to handle the error properly. That's why most exception handlers just print the error.

I think the only situation where exceptions help is in constructors, but there are better solutions to that problem, like explicit object construction methods that can return an error.

I think Go's approach to error handling is the best - explicit and in context. Rust's `Result` looks quite nice though I haven' tried it yet.

Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by barrkel on Friday July 22, 2016 @06:33AM (#12142746)
Most errors shouldn't be handled; that's the reason most exception handlers simply log the error.

I've said it here before, but this is my classification of errors that exceptions are commonly used for:

1) Programming error: null pointer exception, library invariants broken, etc. These generally shouldn't be caught, and could arguably be replaced by fatal assertions, but that's typically not a polite thing to do in a library.

2) Non-deterministic failure condition: something outside the control of the calling code failed in a way that it cannot predict ahead of time. A network connection broke, a file was deleted unexpectedly, a device was detached, database server died, etc. There's something of an argument for annotating functions that can fail this way in the manner of Java's checked exceptions and it has a strong relationship with the IO monad in Haskell (and similar problems with encapsulation and hiding implementation details). These kinds of errors can sometimes be handled, and handling them with exceptions isn't much better or worse than error codes. An advantage of exceptions is that they makes it easy to abort the whole task and go back to the request handler (server code) or event dispatch loop (UI code). Exceptions can carry more state than error codes, too.

3) Business logic problem: the user, for want of a better term, of the program tried to do something that is not allowed / possible, and the program needs to abort the current task and inform the user of the problem. Exceptions are as good a means of aborting as most others. These should only be caught at the top level, whereupon they can be converted into something for human / 422 response / whatever consumption.

In almost all cases, you cannot proceed and there is nothing you can do in reaction to the error. Aborting and unwinding the call stack is usually the correct thing to do.

Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by clappski on Friday July 22, 2016 @06:40AM (#12142764)
I happen to disagree. Exceptions are a powerful abstraction over errors that allow you to highlight the exact context of an error of handled properly by avoiding catches that just throw and actually giving the exception body useful information about the error that can be logged.

I haven't used Go (I'm about to for a small project, though) so I can't comment on the "if err != nil" idiom, but it seems like a step back by encouraging code duplication where it's not needed. I'm a fan of the pattern matching in rust, but it's still rather orthogonal to exceptions as it allows you to deal with an error when you try to access state whereas exceptions are most useful when they appear mid operation.

Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by co_dh on Friday July 22, 2016 @09:37AM (#12143394)
I don't agree neither :). Exceptions don't necessarily lost context. At least in Python. In my previous job, whenever a python exception raise, the code will catch it, with values of each variable, formatted in a beautiful html, and send as an email. You can never overestimate how much time it has saved us to debug. Go's approach to error handling remind me of the old COM days, while you handle error after each function call. I'm glad it's no longer popular.
Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by tkinom on Friday July 22, 2016 @10:57AM (#12143911)
Agree! I tried to move a program from Python to Go. Completely gave up on Go after comparing two language's implementation on exception. Python is just so much easier, cleaner.

Go's implementation on JSON parsing is also.....

Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by pjmlp on Friday July 22, 2016 @02:53PM (#12145821)
Even WinRT, the 2nd coming of COM supports exceptions:

Platform::COMException

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh7104...

Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by IshKebab on Sunday July 24, 2016 @01:22PM (#12153898)
Please. Python doesn't even allow for specifying which exceptions a function throws.
Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by evincarofautumn on Friday July 22, 2016 @12:29AM (#12141692)
Exceptions are much worse than “goto”, in my experience. “throw” is basically a dynamically bound “return” statement—it’s hard to reason about where you’ll end up, because it depends on the call stack above you, and the type of object you decided to throw. The same throw site might jump to many different, unrelated parts of the program. Real exception safety is almost as hard to get right as concurrency, and for similar reasons.
Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by Chris_Newton on Friday July 22, 2016 @01:50AM (#12141937)
I can’t help noticing that much of your objection applies just as much to return as to throw. Isn’t the point, in both cases, that you shouldn’t need to reason about where you’ll end up?

Either your function can complete its task successfully, in which case it satisfies whatever invariants are required of it and returns accordingly, or it can’t, in which case it can throw an exception to indicate that inability to return successfully. In the success case, the calling code can then continue based on whatever returned value and/or side effects the function was supposed to provide. In the failure case, the calling code may well fail itself if it can also no longer complete its task successfully, and so on up the stack until you reach a level in your design that knows how to recover from the failure or stop the entire program gracefully, which is where you catch the exception.

I’ve never quite understood the idea that exceptions are similar to goto. Other than transferring control over potentially long “distances” within a program, they don’t seem to have much in common at all. To me, a much closer analogy would be returning early from a function on success, if you reach a point in your algorithm where you already know the required answer to whatever question your calling code was asking. Another similar situation would be using a break or continue statement to finish an iteration early within a loop, or adding extra guard cases to stop a recursion early, again if you already know the outcome and continuing with the full algorithm has no advantage.

Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by evincarofautumn on Friday July 22, 2016 @02:47AM (#12142096)
> I can’t help noticing that much of your objection applies just as much to return as to throw. Isn’t the point, in both cases, that you shouldn’t need to reason about where you’ll end up?

That is the point, but my specific objection is to the dynamic binding and dynamic typing, not the returning. With “return”, even early return, you don’t really need to reason about where you’ll end up at all—it’s always the end of the current function. And the same goes for functions that throw exceptions directly.

The problem is that when you have unchecked exceptions, any function can throw, so every function call in your code is now also a potential early return, and for correct code you need to account for that.

Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by pjc50 on Friday July 22, 2016 @05:22AM (#12142536)
The real failure is that return types must be declared by exceptions need not be and generally aren't. So an exception can come teleporting through any part of your code. You can no longer enforce single return style, because any expression can return.

This means that writing state-modifying code becomes unreasonably difficult, as you can no longer just write:

  // A and B must be kept in sync and updated together
  A = computeA()
  B = computeB()
.. because it's possible that computeB() throws an exception, leaving the two out of sync.

Yes, there are ways round this involving temporary variables. So you write:

  tmpA = computeA()
  tmpB = computeB()
  A = tmpA, B = tmpB;
and home that neither an optimiser nor an intern removes the tmp variables. But wait! This still doesn't work, because your evil coworker has defined operator= on B to throw an exception!

Personally I don't think that exceptions work very well in the presence of mutable state. Without mutable state, they're exactly equivalent to

Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by barrkel on Friday July 22, 2016 @06:22AM (#12142710)
This is an irreducible complexity if any part of your computation can fail. You're simply ignoring the error cases if you pretend otherwise.

Exceptions with mutable state needs to be coded transactionally, yes, and this is an excellent reason to try and avoid mutable state and use persistent data structures where possible.

Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by pjc50 on Friday July 22, 2016 @10:21AM (#12143653)
> You're simply ignoring the error cases if you pretend otherwise.

.. which makes using the STL surprisingly hard, because you can get an out of memory exception all over the place.

Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by Chris_Newton on Friday July 22, 2016 @10:55AM (#12143898)
In theory, yes, but if system-level errors like running out of memory or other essential resources are realistic possibilities in your particular environment then those risks are what they are. Exceptions don’t do anything fundamental to change that situation, they just (sometimes) provide a more explicit and/or systematic way of dealing with those errors if they occur.

In practice, I think this issue gets far more attention than it deserves, particularly within the C++ community. If you’re running in a particularly resource-constrained environment where running out is a relevant problem, you probably already take precautions about how you allocate those resources and adjust how you structure your program accordingly. You’re trying to avoid any possibility of those errors occurring, which means you don’t then have to worry about dealing with them unexpectedly all over your code.

For me, the more interesting discussing is around how we deal with errors that can be properly recognised and handled within normal execution. That means the interesting exceptions are those we throw ourselves and those deliberately thrown by other modules that we depend on, which we hope will be documented with each module’s interface. These things don’t just go off arbitrarily in just about any line of code we write, and they can be systematically structured, and we can write code that controls where mutations and other effects happen and where exceptions happen and how they interact.

Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by konstmonst on Friday July 22, 2016 @06:05AM (#12142676)
You are just using the worng pattern. Use Computation a; Computation b; use(a, b); Then if the computation aborts in b, then computation a will be cleaned up as intended.
Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by pjc50 on Friday July 22, 2016 @10:19AM (#12143643)
My second point is that with exceptions you can't guarantee the assignment of two objects, because the assignment operator can throw.
Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by plorkyeran on Friday July 22, 2016 @10:41AM (#12143794)
This was somewhat of a problem in C++03 because writing a copy assignment operator that can't fail is sometimes impossible, but I have never encountered a scenario where I was unable to make move assignment noexcept.
Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by slezyr on Friday July 22, 2016 @01:22AM (#12141864)
> Real exception safety is almost as hard to get right as concurrency, and for similar reasons

It's even harder to get right concurrency with exceptions :D

Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by quotemstr on Friday July 22, 2016 @04:24AM (#12142363)
> It's even harder to get right concurrency with exceptions

No it isn't.

Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by adamnemecek on Friday July 22, 2016 @12:53AM (#12141768)
I was referring to old school gotos, not like those in c. But yeah, we are in the same page.
Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by pjmlp on Friday July 22, 2016 @01:03AM (#12141800)
It is very hard to make libraries that rely on features that can be turned off.

The bad idea was making language features optional.

Library writers are forced to either support all possible combinations, don't use any of them or use them and see their library being rejected by those that won't turn on the features even at point gun.

One of the things that made me initially enjoy Java was that there weren't features to turn on or off.

Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by adamnemecek on Friday July 22, 2016 @01:17AM (#12141845)
You are correct but all those books on cpp exceptions are about a bit more than dealing with issues related to optionally disabling them :-).
Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by pjmlp on Friday July 22, 2016 @02:09AM (#12141980)
Agree, but that is because when compared with other languages exceptions in C++ were always bolted on.

They don't play well with manual memory management or the C semantics C++ was trying to be as compatible as possible.

They don't play well with:

- constructors/destructors

- manual resource management

- low level code like UNIX signals

- allowing every possible type to be used as exception

So all of that made C++ exceptions poor cousins of how exceptions are used in other languages.

I have used exceptions in quite a few languages and rather use them (the alternative being sum types), but do understand that how C++ evolved they are an unwelcome feature.

Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by quotemstr on Friday July 22, 2016 @04:21AM (#12142356)
It's only exceptions that allow constructors to work properly and that allow the language to support value type management. Without exceptions, you need two-phase initialization, and that's a nightmare.
Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by pjmlp on Friday July 22, 2016 @05:05AM (#12142479)
I hate two-phase initialization with passion, specially the way it was done in Symbian C++.
Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by cyphar on Friday July 22, 2016 @03:40AM (#12142254)
Except gotos are legitimately useful for cleanup inside a function before you return an error (see: the Linux kernel). Exceptions have overhead, and you have no idea where it will end up because the exception will bubble up the current call-stack, while gotos are local to the current function (and while longjmp is a mess, it is useful if you use clone(2)).
Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by vvanders on Friday July 22, 2016 @10:23AM (#12143667)
You should be using RAII for any resources that you need to automatically clean up, then any return statement will catch it. No need for exceptions.
Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by cyphar on Friday July 22, 2016 @01:47PM (#12145268)
RAII is not a feature of C. I was commenting on how gotos are not like exceptions, because gotos are actually useful and don't cause your program to make less sense as a result.
Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by SamReidHughes on Thursday July 21, 2016 @11:41PM (#12141585)
C++ is memory-unsafe and has a special relationship with the feature. Projects that start without pervasive exception safety in mind are usually stuck that way.
Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by protomyth on Friday July 22, 2016 @11:48AM (#12144252)
I can see it in C++, but they seemed to work pretty well in Ada. A lot of things seem to work better in Ada to be truthful.
Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by pif on Friday July 22, 2016 @08:44AM (#12143182)
When used for exceptional things, exceptions are wonderful. But they were never meant to completely replace status-related exit codes. Expected errors (ex: log file does not exist, so create a new one) are not to be treated via exceptions; exceptional errors (ex: no more memory available, and I'm just trying to allocate a few bytes) are.
Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by zvrba on Friday July 22, 2016 @01:20AM (#12141855)
You're funny. gotos are used to emulate cleanup both of which you get in a more structured manner with RAII and exceptions. Rmember Apple's infamous "goto bug" in OpenSSL?
Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by Peaker on Friday July 22, 2016 @10:35AM (#12143749)
While RAII and exceptions are better than goto's, the "goto fail" bug is not an example of that. The problem there was mismatch between indentation and parse which was a result of brace-less style and whitespace-insensitivity.
Re:LLVM Programmer’s Manual by adamnemecek on Friday July 22, 2016 @01:36AM (#12141900)
I'm well aware. I was talking about old school gotos, I should have probably said that.