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Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by AngrySkillzz on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @12:22PM (#12130243)
If you are a member of a disadvantaged group, you often do not have the ability to identify as a professional first and a group member second. That is the effect of being disadvantaged. Other people will make your life seem primarily about being a group member. Think about dealing with sexist/sexually-charged comments, racial tension at the office. Even if you want to just be a professional, other people will get in your way (and not always intentionally). Maybe imagine what life would be like for one of those people.
Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by btilly on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @12:39PM (#12130389)
Argue for your limitations, and surely they're yours.

To the extent that you can focus on what is under your personal control, you are likely to be happier and more productive. To the extent that you focus on things that are not under your control and can't be changed, you will be unhappy, unproductive, and will have a built-in excuse for your failures. This is not an either-or choice, it is a spectrum. And the farther you manage to go towards taking responsibility for your life, generally the better you will do.

This does not diminish the real challenges that various historically disadvantaged groups have. It is what I believe the best advice is for them based on everything that I have learned..including from people I respect who are members of various disadvantaged groups.

Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by andkon on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @01:49PM (#12130969)
Nah man, of course it diminishes their challenges. You literally start your post by diminishing their challenges; you do this in response to a post that makes the highly uncontroversial point that minorities are perceived differently in the workplace.

The interesting thing is that your line of advice really just needs a single, model minority person to prove it right. "Look! She didn't accede to the haters! Please ignore all the other people like her who gave up along the way! She obviously focused on what was under her personal control, and that's all that mattered."

But it isn't all that matters. If that were true, diversity in tech would not be an issue. Instead, only the most resilient people, those most willing to overlook the ongoing and systemic discrimination, make it.

Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by btilly on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @09:49PM (#12134027)
You appear to be arguing against your impression of what I said, instead of what I actually said. What I gave was practical advice for how to have the best life possible given the circumstances. I said nothing about how easy it is to do it, or the circumstances.

Furthermore the REASON why I pointed out that it is a spectrum is that it isn't all or nothing. If you're truly stuck feeling like a victim a lot of the time and can't change it, you're still better off than you would be otherwise. Better off does not mean well off - discrimination is real. It just means better.

Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by junko on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @02:20PM (#12131261)
I sortof agree with your "toughen up!" stance; as a member of a minority group this is actually practical - but only when I've developed sufficiently thick skin. I've worked in organisations where I was blatantly ignored/sidelined (I'll spare the details of how I came to conclude that it was due to discrimination rather than other factors) and that was pretty demoralising. I share your opinion, but count my blessing that I am able to carry it out.
Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by orbitur on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @02:57PM (#12131535)
Fellow minority and I agree with a toughen up stance as well, as I think we do have to toughen up to actually get ahead.

But that isn't a reason to deny people help, deny people the chance to say "hey, look I'm feeling really alone right now". I wouldn't be as "tough" as I am now if it weren't for a few people who gave me a hand when I truly needed it. I wouldn't be where I am without reading a ton of blogposts by other marginalized people who feel the same way as I did.

There are, no doubt, people who like to wallow in their insecurities, but they aren't any worse than the people who say the marginalized should just suck it up and work harder, or that people who feel marginalized should shut up.

Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by btilly on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @09:57PM (#12134072)
Exactly.

The phrase, "To the extent that you can..." was meant to convey the fact that the perfect ideal is not feasible. I also tried to make it clear that the attempt is worthwhile because even if your best is only an occasional success, you'll still wind up better off than you would otherwise.

On the question of toxic organizations, I'd like to point out that recognizing that the organization is toxic and choosing to be elsewhere was under your control. I commend you for making that choice. There will always be toxic people and toxic organizations. Some, like the police, we have little choice about dealing with. But there is no need to put up with ones that we can avoid. And by avoiding them, we make our lives better.

Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by MaxfordAndSons on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @01:53PM (#12131020)
I'd argue that there are other reasons for seeking a group of one's similarly disadvantaged peers than 'focusing on things that are not under your control'. Simply being in the presence of individuals with similar experiences offers solidarity, which is not equivalent to focusing on the negatives of those experiences. Nor would I agree that 'seeking reassurances' (quote from grandparent) necessarily leads to lowered expectations.
Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by btilly on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @10:10PM (#12134119)
There are plenty of reasons why one might choose to investigate such groups. And would hope that such groups might have positive things to offer.

However experience suggests that you are likely to wind up around people who are quick to explain all failures as discrimination. Because they do this for themselves, they are unlikely to be successful. If you adopt this attitude, your odds of success are also hurt.

Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by peeb on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @06:35PM (#12133069)
While I understand where you come from, this is the kind of advice I would give a friend or family if they came to me and said “hey, I am having a hard time in the industry and I think it’s because I am a minority”. Do your best, try to grow a thick skin, etc.

However, I believe you can’t possibly extend that (positive and helpful) feeling to an outside “political” statement. If our aim is to make the industry welcoming and accepting to everyone, I believe we should do more than what you describe and try to figure out a way to make it right.

It might not help minorities in tech right now, but it will eventually.

Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by btilly on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @10:21PM (#12134174)
Yes you can.

If you have a minority that has every disadvantage but believes that they CAN succeed by their own effort, that minority will succeed and it will reduce bigotry against them. Indeed the history of the USA supports this - we have had wave after wave of disadvantaged immigrants. They have nothing, have trouble with the language, and are widely discriminated against. But a generation or two later you have seen Italians, Koreans, Chinese, Vietnamese, Russian Jews, Afghans, and many other minorities integrate into the mainstream and do well.

But get a victim culture established in a minority, and things won't improve for them. They are unlikely to actually face more discrimination than, say, Cambodians did when they arrived here penniless and not speaking the language about 40 years ago. But they will have a worse future.

Look at it a different way. If you're from a disadvantaged minority, you've likely got a strike against you for having a bad background, and another for current discrimination. Add a victim mentality, and you're out. It doesn't matter how good the evidence is that you're an actual victim, it is the mentality that you can't afford.

Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by ScottBurson on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @03:28PM (#12131770)
> things that are not under your control and can't be changed

Maybe those things can't be changed in the short run, but maybe speaking up about them helps move society in the direction of changing them in the long run.

Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by smokeyj on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @01:01PM (#12130597)
> If you are a member of a disadvantaged group

Short, fat, scrawny, aging, young, poor, immigrant, religious, atheist, nose-picker.

Maybe identifying as a card carrying member of a "disadvantaged" group isn't the healthiest outlook to have.

Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by iamdave on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @01:33PM (#12130848)
>Maybe identifying as a card carrying member of a "disadvantaged" group isn't the healthiest outlook to have.

Maybe some people don't walk around looking for every opportunity to trumpet their social group like an American Express card and just have certain realities that they deal with that individuals who aren't say a minority, a woman or physically disabled aren't privy to and sometimes have baggage thrust upon them just by virtue of their position.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12090093

This comment comes to mind and I think illustrates an example of what I mean by this.

Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by mpweiher on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @02:54PM (#12131514)
The comment you pointed to seems very reasonable to me, I am assuming from the rest of your comment that you don't think it is.

We all have such realities, and typically few if any other people realise what's going on. Just be kind. To everyone (note to self: be better at this).

It's not specific to any particular group (though: apparently short men have it quite a bit worse than other "protected" groups: http://www.jonathanrauch.com/jrauch_articles/height_discrimi... )

Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by iamdave on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @02:56PM (#12131529)
I'm by no means asserting it isn't reasonable, In fact I'm using it to bolster my point in suggesting an opposite side to the same coin of "card carrying member of x" in a manner that demands attention to perhaps what informs and enforces the perception of "identifying as a card carrying member of %group%" with a dash more nuance than what exists on the surface.

For some people, their identity and association as a member of %group% is something they outwardly display to be observed and consumed by others, and they have their reasons for it. For others, it's something they keep to themselves and prefer to carry on and be judged on the merits of their contributions to work and family, and they have their reasons for that. These things don't invalidate one another.

For others still, their association with %group% isn't something they choose, and is prominent and obvious by merely walking into a room and for good or ill, a person often finds themselves navigating all sorts of assumptions, guesses and biases about that association whether or not they can control it. That was the thrust of my comment.

Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by smokeyj on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @03:31PM (#12131786)
Not exactly sure the point you're making, but I really enjoy Paul Grahams essay on the topic of identity.

http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html

> Most people reading this will already be fairly tolerant. But there is a step beyond thinking of yourself as x but tolerating y: not even to consider yourself an x. The more labels you have for yourself, the dumber they make you.

Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by iamdave on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @03:46PM (#12131893)
>Not exactly sure the point you're making

Some women choose to openly identify as (for example) feminist and embrace all of the connotations and reactions that come with that.

Some women choose to identify as feminist more privately and live their life being fair with others and only discussing their group association among certain circles they feel allow them to do so free from worry of being ostracized or criticized for that group association.

Some women choose not to identify as feminist at all, want nothing to do with the modern brand of 'feminism', but might still have to put up with some of the externalities of being a woman in certain spaces that sometime get associated (sometimes unfairly) with, or are critiqued by modern feminism.

This is an example. This is my point.

The comment I referenced above perfectly illustrates an example: just because I am a member of the black community doesn't automatically mean I desire to constantly be the spokesperson for position n that impacts the black community. Some individuals choose to be in that role, other's don't; however that there are those who don't want that burden shouldn't be taken as an indicator to mean they're immune from the biases and assumptions that come from onlookers who see me as an opinionated and (I'm trying to hold back from typing this word because of the baggage inherent to it in this context) articulate black man and ask me "Well what do you think about Black Lives Matter?"

Does that clear it up at all?

Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by mpweiher on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @06:03PM (#12132883)
> just because I am a member of the black community

> doesn't automatically mean I desire to constantly

> be the spokesperson for position n that impacts

> the black community.

Sure. But again, everyone has something like that. I am German. When I lived in the US, do you know how many times I had to give my opinion on Hitler? Or dissuade people from the notion that because I am German I must obviously be a fan? When discussing things with British people, you know how many times they dig up "2 wars"?

As a man, I have to put up with the fact that women who know nothing whatsoever about me will see me as a danger, even though in fact they are almost certainly more of a danger to me than I am to them.

That's life.

Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by iamdave on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @11:01PM (#12134319)
>That's life.

And that's my point. We agree more than you think we do, we're just using different ways of arriving at the exact same nexus. It's life, it doesn't however mean I have any obligation to indulge those curiosities, and I for my part, have no desire to. There's no more wrong with me understanding and acknowledging the position some people are in and their willingness to engage than there is with my own position and my tendency to go "No thanks" when asked to give some explanation on the black experience.

It's life. Absolutely. I don't have anything to say to the contrary.

Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by sevenless on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @03:36PM (#12131814)
You don't get to choose all of those labels.
Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by ScottBurson on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @03:33PM (#12131796)
Ah, I get it, you're not talking about the comment itself, you're talking about the behavior the comment is addressing.
Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by iamdave on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @03:48PM (#12131905)
Yup, you nailed it!
Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by retox on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @01:32PM (#12130838)
Agreed, identity politics and self segregation are unhealthy and unhelpful, both inside tech and in the larger context.
Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by kaitai on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @03:32PM (#12131789)
People look at my boobs and identify me as a woman -- I don't really have to do anything but exist. It's not really about my outlook.
Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by pc86 on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @12:41PM (#12130422)
And imagine how much harder it must be to advocate that you're a professional first and a group member second when you're the Vice President of "Women Coders of San Diego" or whatever other group advocacy organization would be relevant.
Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by forgetsusername on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @02:48PM (#12131472)
>If you are a member of a disadvantaged group >Maybe imagine what life would be like for one of those people

Who here isn't a member of some disadvantaged group? Being "white" and "male" doesn't mean you're home free. So I don't need to "imagine" being one of "those people"; I am one.

Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by runeks on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @02:43PM (#12131427)

    > If you are a member of a disadvantaged group, you often do
    > not have the ability to identify as a professional first and 
    > a group member second. That is the effect of being disadvantaged. 
    > Other people will make your life seem primarily about being a group 
    > member.
The only power other people have over you is the ability to alter your thoughts. Thoughts, however, can be ignored. Some thoughts are just harder to ignore than others, but practice makes perfect. So while it is possible for other people to instill a thought in your mind of who you supposedly are, when you are aware of this thought, you have the choice of whether or not you want to believe it. Caveat: the pleasant feelings associated with identifying with a positive thought also disappear.
Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by beevai142 on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @03:41PM (#12131849)
Other people have power to not hire you, fire you, not offer you opportunities to advance, not invite you to the "old boys club" to network etc. Add to that your caveat, and good luck with that.
Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by runeks on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @04:17PM (#12132149)
Every human being has the ability to not hire someone else, thankfully. How difficult life would be if we had to hire everyone we met.

With regards to having the right to fire people you've previously hired, I think that's justified. In places like Italy, where they make it hard to fire someone once hired, youth unemployment is abnormally high, because it's quite natural to shy away from entering into a contract you can't get out of.

Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by rhizome on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @05:08PM (#12132526)
This doesn't account for the fundamental attribution error.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error

Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by runeks on Thursday July 21, 2016 @01:20AM (#12134905)
The "fundamental attribution error" is a symptom of the very issue it itself is trying to solve: too much thinking. Thinking about why we think too much won't get us closer to a solution.

The fundamental problem is believing every thought that pops into your mind. We do that when we're not conscious of thought. Whether a compulsive thought concerns "internal characteristics of a person" or "external factors of a situation" is not relevant.

Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by rhizome on Thursday July 21, 2016 @04:25PM (#12139769)
No. The FAE essentially says that choice is stronger than luck. You can't choose your way to becoming the King or Queen of England and you can't choose your way out of being a black person in the US (e.g.'s all). Every point in your comment depended on choice, without considering that intractable circumstances that everybody lives within, for good or bad.
Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by runeks on Sunday July 24, 2016 @02:08AM (#12152403)
If you can't stop thinking about the intractable circumstances of your life, the problem is with your inability to stop thinking, not with the supposedly intractable circumstances of your life.

Life is inherently intractable. If you can't stop thinking about this fact, you indeed do have a problem.

Re:Why I won’t give talks about being a woman in tech by throwanem on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @01:03PM (#12130615)
Does it still count as mansplaining when the subject is why all women should agree with, and behave like, people who use the word "mansplaining"?