News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Cloudflare ReCAPTCHA De-Anonymizes Tor Users by djsumdog on Tuesday July 19, 2016 @03:37PM (#12124233)
I remember someone at a security conference talking about a kid at a University who sent a bomb threat via Tor.

The University simply looked their their logs to see who was connecting to known Tor nodes, narrowed it down by time and found the kid.

Source: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/12/18/harvard_bomb_hoax_ch...

Re:Cloudflare ReCAPTCHA De-Anonymizes Tor Users by mmaunder on Tuesday July 19, 2016 @05:23PM (#12125025)
Good opsec involves multiple layers of security. There's a fun talk at defcon next month on extending wifi range to avoid detection along with signal 'hiding' via SDR:

https://www.defcon.org/html/defcon-23/dc-23-speakers.html#Gr...

Re:Cloudflare ReCAPTCHA De-Anonymizes Tor Users by _asummers on Tuesday July 19, 2016 @06:28PM (#12125418)
There's another good talk on more general opsec from Defcon a few years ago called "Don't fuck it up".

https://youtube.com/watch?v=J1q4Ir2J8P8

Re:Cloudflare ReCAPTCHA De-Anonymizes Tor Users by rev_bird on Tuesday July 19, 2016 @07:56PM (#12125846)
This is great, thanks for linking it. I'm really interested in this kind of stuff, but it's so hard to find resources on it. Lots of people on Twitter making fun of mistakes people make, not a lot of folks giving advice.
Re:Cloudflare ReCAPTCHA De-Anonymizes Tor Users by j_s on Tuesday July 19, 2016 @10:34PM (#12126488)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6521145

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6521517

These discussions are definitely post-mortem analysis but there is also discussion on another OpSec presentation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XaYdCdwiWU

Re:Cloudflare ReCAPTCHA De-Anonymizes Tor Users by blastrat on Tuesday July 19, 2016 @07:26PM (#12125722)
good opsec also involves logging access to the internet and seeing who sent bomb threats... oh wait, whose side am I on?
Re:Cloudflare ReCAPTCHA De-Anonymizes Tor Users by zaqwsxcde on Tuesday July 19, 2016 @11:09PM (#12126608)
In asymmetric warfare, being the little guy tends to be the greater challenge, and carries harsh, personally felt consequences.

Protecting livestock, so they can be fleeced by their proper owner, on the otherhand, doesn't imbue the same sort of charisma upon the good shepherd.

Re:Cloudflare ReCAPTCHA De-Anonymizes Tor Users by ayyn0n0n0 on Tuesday July 19, 2016 @05:29PM (#12125066)
I will so be there!
Re:Cloudflare ReCAPTCHA De-Anonymizes Tor Users by Relys on Tuesday July 19, 2016 @06:04PM (#12125292)
Same! =D
Re:Cloudflare ReCAPTCHA De-Anonymizes Tor Users by jsmthrowaway on Tuesday July 19, 2016 @03:42PM (#12124277)
That situation becomes quite relevant when debating "VPN then Tor" or "Tor then VPN," which I've seen people come down on both ways. Ultimately it depends on who the threat is.

Example: https://thetinhat.com/tutorials/darknets/tor-vpn-using-both....

Re:Cloudflare ReCAPTCHA De-Anonymizes Tor Users by drewbug on Tuesday July 19, 2016 @04:26PM (#12124629)
What about VPN -> Tor -> VPN?
Re:Cloudflare ReCAPTCHA De-Anonymizes Tor Users by prdonahue on Tuesday July 19, 2016 @04:30PM (#12124652)
Yeah, because 5,000ms latency is fun.
Re:Cloudflare ReCAPTCHA De-Anonymizes Tor Users by lucb1e on Tuesday July 19, 2016 @04:37PM (#12124709)
For a bomb threat? Or more benignly, uploading a few documents to a whiteblowers platform (some news organizations have one)? No problem I'd say.
Re:Cloudflare ReCAPTCHA De-Anonymizes Tor Users by jsmthrowaway on Tuesday July 19, 2016 @04:40PM (#12124721)
Have you tried TCP with 5sec latency? It can barely window. Shit, dialup was better, and that would still cost you half a second or so for a full-MTU packet.

I see your point, don't worry, it would just be a lot more rough than you're implying, particularly to upload many heavy PDFs. (I kind of want to lab it now that we've discussed it.)

Re:Cloudflare ReCAPTCHA De-Anonymizes Tor Users by lucb1e on Tuesday July 19, 2016 @06:04PM (#12125291)
I meant a delay of a few seconds, not strictly >=5s, but still I wanted to prove you wrong even about 5 seconds.

Turns out Cloudflare deems 5 seconds latency too much. I thought most default timeouts were something like 30 seconds, and when writing applications myself I usually limit them to 8 or 10 seconds (to be able to get back to the user quick enough with an "unable to connect" error, but to also give it a moment). I expected that 5 seconds latency would be slow, but not unbearable. Instead it breaks stuff completely.

From my testing, 3.5 seconds latency works fine. Slow, but it consistently works.

Adding 5 seconds latency just breaks TLS connections to Cloudflare, though DNS, TCP and HTTP work. I was able to retrieve a webpage (via netcat) from my site, the redirect to HTTPS from http://news.ycombinator.com worked, and pinging showed a consistent 5030ms +/- 10ms latency.

Adding 3.5 to 5 seconds latency (random variance) makes, as expected, some connections fail. On my second try, I was able to load the Hacker News homepage, consisting of: 1) the homepage; 2) robots.txt (wget retrieves this); 3) css file; 4) javascript file; 5) favicon; 6-10) 4 images. In total 10 resources, taking a minute and 20 seconds. After establishing a TLS connection, it could reuse that connection for multiple requests. I think this is equivalent to hitting reload a few times in a browser.

So VPN-TOR-VPN might work still, though it is indeed more on the edge than I expected. Thanks for making me venture here, I learned something!

Re:Cloudflare ReCAPTCHA De-Anonymizes Tor Users by shivsta on Tuesday July 19, 2016 @04:36PM (#12124699)
Tor is already slow - people use it because they want security. The addition of another VPN increases security greatly and only adds a minimal amount of more latency.
Re:Cloudflare ReCAPTCHA De-Anonymizes Tor Users by lucb1e on Tuesday July 19, 2016 @04:40PM (#12124719)
> Tor is already slow

Relatively, sure. But I've found it very usable in recent times actually. Used it almost full-time (besides a normal Firefox instance for the company's intranet) to get around some silly firewall that wouldn't let me download "hack tools" (I was an intern in the cyber security department, security tools were part of my job). There were times where I didn't notice at all that I was using Tor, and most of the time it was comparable to mediocre wifi.

Re:Cloudflare ReCAPTCHA De-Anonymizes Tor Users by rycfan on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @12:37AM (#12126931)
You probably should have spent some time fixing that hole in the firewall that let you bypass your company's download restrictions. ;-)
Re:Cloudflare ReCAPTCHA De-Anonymizes Tor Users by halfcat on Sunday July 24, 2016 @12:10AM (#12152179)
You would usually not try to block Tor at the network level. You would lock down your computers so employees can't make changes, and only allow them to run executables from locations which they have no write access to.
Re:Cloudflare ReCAPTCHA De-Anonymizes Tor Users by lucb1e on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @08:31AM (#12128456)
Tor can and should circumvent any firewall using obfuscation proxies that use AWS, GCS, Azure, etc. You'd need to block most of the internet to kill Tor.

And as for monitoring, I guess it might be possible, but if someone thinks to use bridge nodes that's also defeated.

Re:Cloudflare ReCAPTCHA De-Anonymizes Tor Users by 616c on Tuesday July 19, 2016 @08:15PM (#12125936)
God I wish grugq still wrote currently.

https://grugq.github.io/blog/2013/12/21/in-search-of-opsec-m...

I discovered he moved to Github pages after years only to realize he has not published much since I first heard of him.

Re:Cloudflare ReCAPTCHA De-Anonymizes Tor Users by nyolfen on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @12:42AM (#12126942)
he has a tumblr which he updates frequently, but it's mostly just links to things he finds interesting: https://grugq.tumblr.com/
Re:Cloudflare ReCAPTCHA De-Anonymizes Tor Users by mrb on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @02:18AM (#12127210)
Re:Cloudflare ReCAPTCHA De-Anonymizes Tor Users by meowface on Tuesday July 19, 2016 @06:29PM (#12125435)
It's funny, because just with a little hostname and MAC spoofing, he probably could've gotten away with it even if he sent it from their wireless network with no anonymization whatsoever. (Depending on how it does authentication, at least.)
Re:Cloudflare ReCAPTCHA De-Anonymizes Tor Users by MichaelGG on Tuesday July 19, 2016 @07:04PM (#12125619)
Nope, not needed. He had gotten away with it! There was no evidence that the target was on campus. Just a lucky lead for the university. All he had to say was he was browsing "personal" sites, or looking up Onion sites out of curiosity, etc. Just a basic cover. Instead, he caved immediately.

Maybe they would have found other evidence. But it wouldn't have been just him connecting to Tor.