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Re:Tech Companies and Diversity Hiring by Alex3917 on Friday July 15, 2016 @10:48AM (#12101351)
While there is more than adequate evidence of racism in tech hiring, it would be useful if articles like this included the expected percentage of X engineers if there were no bias in the hiring process.

E.g. if the expected percentage of black engineers if there were no bias in the hiring process was 2%, that seems like important information to include.

Re:Tech Companies and Diversity Hiring by JPKab on Friday July 15, 2016 @11:36AM (#12101730)
Something the author hints at is that the big discrepancy is geographic in nature, not racial. The geographic discrepancy manifests itself in not enough blacks getting hired.

Let me put it bluntly: I grew up in the rural south. I NEVER meet other programmers who have a background remotely similar to mine, ever.

When was the last time you worked with a coder who grew up in a place that wasn't a wealthy suburb or a nice city?

How many people who grew up in trailer parks work at Google or Apple?

The author is right: not enough black folks at these companies. What is sad is that this is a symptom of the real issue, which is socioeconomic and geographic in nature, and the companies trying to do something about it are only focusing on the symptoms.

This means that even companies like Apple will never fully address the underrepresented groups. America doesn't have a race problem, so much as a culture problem. Obviously culture is extremely aligned with race, but think about it this way: the geographical and socieconomic layers that are excluded by these tech companies are filled with people of all colors, and nobody gives a shit about the people that look too similar to the white folks from wealthy cities that have every advantage.

Re:Tech Companies and Diversity Hiring by jbooth on Friday July 15, 2016 @11:53AM (#12101847)
Given how much of the job is based on resourcefulness and 'sticktoitiveness' which wind up being completely unmeasured by the typical big-o-whiteboard-olympics.. I wonder if it wouldn't be an edge in hiring to fast-track anybody from a disadvantaged background. They've proven that they can break the mold and overcome adversity, kids from the suburbs->stanford route haven't, necessarily.
Re:Tech Companies and Diversity Hiring by vec on Friday July 15, 2016 @12:44PM (#12102237)
> Something the author hints at is that the big discrepancy is geographic in nature, not racial.

It's not an either/or proposition; it's both/and. According to the article, Google, Facebook, and Twitter are all ~2% black. The population of Silicon valley is just shy of 8% black. The national number is about 18%. Silicon valley is an unusally white area, and the staff demographics are skewed even relative to that baseline.

For what it's worth, I am originally from a small industrial town in rural Arkansas, and I am white. Getting hired in a tech firm was actually quite easy for me, given that I was willing to move away from where I grew up to an urban area with a thriving tech sector. I'd like to think that would still have been true even if I were black, but...

Re:Tech Companies and Diversity Hiring by JPKab on Friday July 15, 2016 @03:08PM (#12103149)
I live in Arkansas. I'm in the little bubble of prosperity surrounding Bentonville. I'm moving to Denver in 2 weeks because my job is requiring me to.

Some of the poorest people in the country (most of them white) surround this little bubble all through the Ozarks, extending east into Appalachia. You're from here, and you know that. Moving to an "urban area with a thriving tech sector" isn't exactly cheap. Getting into a good college is a nice precursor to that, and that is radically helped by having a decent public school system.

I don't think it's a stretch to say that these are very difficult obstacles for people, no matter there color.

In fact, I'll say it now: a black kid who attends school in Fairfax County, Virginia is going to have a better shot at a tech job down the road than a white kid who attends school in Ft. Smith, Arkansas. These are extremely different places, but I'm pointing this out because while race matters, waaaay too much emphasis is placed on it compared to the structural factors that impact people independent of ethnicity.

Re:Tech Companies and Diversity Hiring by vec on Friday July 15, 2016 @04:05PM (#12103464)
So I agree with most of what you're saying. I turned a state-funded boarding school education into a scholarship to an engineering university, and I'm acutely aware of how much luck is involved in that story, and of how much would have been difficult if not impossible if my family hadn't been at least middle class to start with. We do have a very real class problem in America, exacerbated by a deep urban/rural cultural divide, and it is a disgrace how little we're talking about it.

Unfortunately, we also have a very real racism problem, and I don't think it's helpful to say "the real problem is classism". The very real problems include both racism and classism. It's too hard to get into tech as a poor white man. It's too hard to get into tech as a middle class black man. For that matter, it's too hard to get into tech as a middle class white woman. And it's way, way too hard as any combination of those.

In general, responding to "we have a huge racism issue" with "we actually have a huge classism issue" isn't wrong, but it isn't helpful either. It derails the conversation from a very real problem into arguing about who has it worse. And the worst part is that most of the changes that would help the racism issue would also help most of the other -isms. Blind hiring, more support for remote work, and less dependence on specific universities in hiring pipelines helps everybody. And even very targeted interventions help indirectly to the extent they erode the stereotype that only upper-middle-class 20-something white guys need apply.

Re:Tech Companies and Diversity Hiring by tzs on Friday July 15, 2016 @10:28PM (#12104983)
> In general, responding to "we have a huge racism issue" with "we actually have a huge classism issue" isn't wrong, but it isn't helpful either.

What if the classism problem is a significant cause of the racism problem? Race and class correlate, so if someone has a problem with a particular class they are going to learn to associate certain races with that class, and their classism issue becomes a racism issue to the outside observer.

Re:Tech Companies and Diversity Hiring by tzs on Friday July 15, 2016 @10:03PM (#12104901)
> These are extremely different places, but I'm pointing this out because while race matters, waaaay too much emphasis is placed on it compared to the structural factors that impact people independent of ethnicity.

I think that is one of the big impediments to actually solving many of the current problems that involve race.

For instance, take the issue of people getting shot by police. It is a fact that blacks are shot at a higher rate than whites in the United States. It is also a fact that blacks commit violent crimes at a higher rate than whites. Most people get hung up on one of those two facts and won't go farther.

The liberal side (I'm going to be doing some broad generalizations from here on...) gets hung up on blacks getting shot at a higher rate and attributes it to obvious racism on the part of police. They don't want to consider that the police may be shooting blacks at a higher rate for non-racist reasons.

The conservative side points to the higher crime rate among blacks, takes that as a satisfactory explanation for the police shooting data (and they are probably reasonably right, at least for the proximate cause of police shootings), and then gets hung up on that. They don't want to consider that there may be some factors that are disproportionately pushing blacks into conditions that tend to foster higher crime rates among people in those conditions regardless of race.

In particular, there is a pretty solid correlation between race and wealth in the US. Black people are disproportionately in poorer cites and states, where schools are worse, prospects are dimmer, and there is high population density. Those kind of areas tend to produce higher crime rates regardless of the race or ethnicity of the people that live in them.

(Well, to be accurate, that should be "higher crime rates for the kind of crimes that often gets you shot by police". White collar crime tends to be a lot safer during the arrest, because those arrests tend to come at the end of a long investigation and the arresting officers know your movements and can put a lot of planning into your apprehension. When you get arrested for robbing a liquor store or shooting a rival gang member, the arrest tends to be a more hastily organized affair, with a lot more improvising).

I've seen dozens of articles in newspapers and magazines that have looked at the police shooting data, and heard numerous stories about it on my local public radio station, but none that I've seen/heard have looked at how this relates to wealth levels. I realize that would be harder to do because that's generally not something that is directly in the data. But without that analysis being done, we are just going to be stuck at the "police are racists"/"blacks commit too much crime" level, which is not productive.

Re:Tech Companies and Diversity Hiring by tzs on Friday July 15, 2016 @01:36PM (#12102592)
> The population of Silicon valley is just shy of 8% black. The national number is about 18%. Silicon valley is an unusally white area [...]

Unless you are counting Asians as "white", that is not correct. The nation as a whole is between 63% and 77% white (depending on whether or not "hispanic" and "white" are considered disjoint). In Silicon Valley, whites are only about 35%, and are not even the largest racial/ethnic group, having been surpassed by Asians.

Re:Tech Companies and Diversity Hiring by clifanatic on Friday July 15, 2016 @11:26AM (#12101650)
It's also curious that everything that ever seems to be published on diversity - especially in technology - seems to focus either on the percentage of representation of black people or the percentage of representation of women. I guess this author focused on the percentage of representation of black people because he's black, and that impacts him, but just anecdotally based on the 25 years I've been doing this, I'd say that Indian people (men and women) are vastly overrepresented as a percentage of the tech workforce. Is that due to racial preferences for Indian people? Articles like this would seem to draw that conclusion - either the underrepresentation of black people is not due to racism or the overrepresentation of Indian people must be, correct? I also find it interesting that people are studying, say, the representation by gender and race but not, say, religion - how under/over represented are Jewish people or Muslim people in technology? Are there biases there?
Re:Tech Companies and Diversity Hiring by JoeAltmaier on Friday July 15, 2016 @11:30AM (#12101679)
There's a backstory to all this - Indian immigration is largely folks with wealthy backgrounds and high education. That's understandable without resorting to color. But Americans from similar schools and similar levels of wealth are not hired in Silicon Valley - we look for another reason. And it happens to correlate with skin color.

Just looking at stats and pretending that's the whole story is disingenuous.

Re:Tech Companies and Diversity Hiring by dareobasanjo on Friday July 15, 2016 @11:22AM (#12101615)
Since you're the second person who's asked on this thread. Here's a link to stats about STEM (including computer science) graduates in the US - http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind12/c2/c2s2.htm

Assuming everyone who graduated with a CS degree from the US was hired at an equivalent then one would expect something closer to 7%-8%.

Re:Tech Companies and Diversity Hiring by statics on Friday July 15, 2016 @11:45AM (#12101792)
A few very bad assumptions there: 1) not all employees have CS degrees from the US, many are foreign 2) the graduation rate by "race" or "gender" in 2015 is not what is was in 2005, 1995, 1985 or 1975, and the any industry has many people who graduated a long time ago. Comparing current year demographics to the industry as a whole seems really off. 3) Due to historical economic status which is correlated with race, more of those that started off less well off tend to gravitate towards more stable companies.

None of these things mean that negative racial discrimination or stereotyping don't exist, just that we shouldn't expect numbers for a particular industry population to match the aggregate stats on who graduated last year.

Re:Tech Companies and Diversity Hiring by fwadfka on Friday July 15, 2016 @11:56AM (#12101868)
> Assuming everyone who graduated with a CS degree from the US was hired at an equivalent then one would expect something closer to 7%-8%.

When I look at the data, I see that 2.5% of graduates are black. I'm looking at PhD, Master's or Bachelor's in CS in 2015.[1]

The totals exclude those with unknown ethnicity:

15 black CS PhDs out of 1442

110 black CS Master’s out of 8,923

425 black CS Bachelor’s out of 11,974

(15+110+425) / (1442+8923+11974) = ~0.0246

[1] 2015 Taulbee Survey, Computing Research Association

http://cra.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/2015-Taulbee-Surve...

EDIT: I believe one big source of the difference between our numbers is whether you count "Information" degrees as a CS degree. My number only looks at "Computer science" degrees, whereas your data looks at "Computer sciences" degrees.

Re:Tech Companies and Diversity Hiring by Sacho on Friday July 15, 2016 @11:54AM (#12101853)
The numbers are specifically in appendix 2-19(http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind12/append/c2/at02-19.xls)

2009 data:

(numbers are CS/All, CS% from all CS, CS% from all graduates in category)

Total graduating with a CS degree: 38,496/1,619,028(100%, ~2.37%)

Total White: 23,021/1,069,016(~60%, ~2.15%)

Total Black: 3,868/145,988(~10%, ~2.64%)

Total Asian/Pacific Islander: 2,894/105,246(7.5%, ~2.75%)

Total Hispanic: 2,999/137,746(7.80%, ~2.17%)

Interestingly, both Black and Asian/PI are significantly above the number of CS graduates per capita, and White/Hispanic are below.

Re:Tech Companies and Diversity Hiring by Alex3917 on Friday July 15, 2016 @11:34AM (#12101712)
That's useful. Whether or not that's the right number is difficult to say, but it's good to have some sort of baseline assumption to frame the rest of the piece.
Re:Tech Companies and Diversity Hiring by woah on Friday July 15, 2016 @11:18AM (#12101581)
Well the proportion of blacks in the US population is 13%, so even Apple should be hiring twice as many to have a proportional representation.
Re:Tech Companies and Diversity Hiring by Bartweiss on Friday July 15, 2016 @11:30AM (#12101684)
But that's not the number to look at for an article like this. The whole idea of pipeline problems is that you lose proportionality a little at a time, from early education to full time careers.

Ideally, you'd check the proportions starting from something like mathematical success or career intent in high school. Then you move on to college majors, graduation rates, and applicant pools. This is really important, because otherwise you end up focusing energy on non-leaky parts of the pipeline and achieving nothing.

This article focuses on interviewing, but the segment on black colleges and office siting is crucial. Ensuring unbiased interviews doesn't stop you from drawing interview candidates from disproportionately white colleges. Holding local code-ins won't save you from having offices in overwhelmingly white cities. "Lowering the bar", which companies are (according to this) hugely concerned about, still wouldn't solve the problem.

If you're studying the mismatch between 13% of the population and 1% of your workforce, the numbers you want are the ones that show where things went wrong.

Re:Tech Companies and Diversity Hiring by thesimpsons1022 on Friday July 15, 2016 @11:34AM (#12101713)
I gaurantee you out of the people who can code or have cs degrees, blacks make up a much smaller percentage. You can't blame Apple for the deep societal issues we have that leads the average black person to be more likely to end up in prison than college
Re:Tech Companies and Diversity Hiring by Sacho on Friday July 15, 2016 @12:03PM (#12101929)
According to the numbers Dare sourced in replies in the thread, blacks have significantly higher CS college graduates per capita than whites/hispanics, and about on par with Asians. The number of blacks within just those who have CS college degrees is ~10%.
Re:Tech Companies and Diversity Hiring by fwadfka on Friday July 15, 2016 @02:57PM (#12103086)
That number is misleading, because that data uses a "Computer sciences" category which likely lumps in "Information" degrees. The number I see in 2015 is ~2.5% (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12101868)
Re:Tech Companies and Diversity Hiring by rando289 on Friday July 15, 2016 @11:01AM (#12101447)
I can't remember a story like this without horrible data: numbers without much context from which no good conclusions can be drawn.