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Re:African wildlife officials appalled as EU opposes a total... by ced on Friday July 08, 2016 @12:00PM (#12056450)
Does anyone have context for the EU opposition to the ban? Economic interests?
Re:African wildlife officials appalled as EU opposes a total... by yorwba on Friday July 08, 2016 @12:23PM (#12056671)
the article links to http://ec.europa.eu/transparency/regdoc/rep/1/2016/EN/1-2016... which says on page 7

  Clarification needs to be made as to 
  the scope of the proposal 
  -
  the call 
  for a general closure of domestic 
  ivory markets does not seem 
  justified but the EU could show 
  openness to initiatives aiming to 
  restrict domestic ivory trade, 
  provided that the measures are 
  proportionate (for example call for 
  closure of domestic market except 
  for pre-Convention ivory 
  or in cases where there have been 
  evidences that domestic legal 
  markets have been used as a cover 
  for illegal ivory trade).
and on page 13

  Oppose the transfer to Appendix I
  of the populations of BW, NA, ZA, 
  ZW. These four national 
  populations have an increasing 
  population trend (tbc for Zimbabwe)
  and do not meet the 
  criteria for transfer to Appendix I. 
  Recognizing the efforts made by 
  Southern African countries to 
  sustainably manage their elephant 
  population and combat poaching, 
  those countries should better be 
  encouraged to pursue their efforts.
Re:African wildlife officials appalled as EU opposes a total... by conjectures on Friday July 08, 2016 @01:02PM (#12056974)
I read the first one as meaning: antiques.

The second seems like they are taking a technical interpretation of some rules without looking at the bigger picture.

Re:African wildlife officials appalled as EU opposes a total... by deadowl on Friday July 08, 2016 @12:43PM (#12056829)
In Vermont (US) it was the NRA that opposed it, and I imagine the situation was because big game hunting has long been romanticized by the rich and powerful, who basically tell their organizations to oppose it based on marginal cherry-picked issues like the keys on antique pianos.
Re:African wildlife officials appalled as EU opposes a total... by iteabagkevin2 on Friday July 08, 2016 @12:08PM (#12056529)
Because black markets for these goods are much more devastating to the animal populations than a legal regulated marketplace.
Re:African wildlife officials appalled as EU opposes a total... by adamnemecek on Friday July 08, 2016 @12:11PM (#12056560)
This is simply not true and this 'meme' is really harmful. A legal market would only encourage consumption and serve as a cover for the black market.
Re:African wildlife officials appalled as EU opposes a total... by SimonPStevens on Friday July 08, 2016 @12:20PM (#12056648)
I would like to see some evidence on either side of this argument.

I can see that there is logic to both cases. Saying one side is "simply not true" doesn't make your case. Is there any firm evidence either way.

Re:African wildlife officials appalled as EU opposes a total... by adamnemecek on Friday July 08, 2016 @12:35PM (#12056764)
Read the comments in this thread. The current crisis is generally attributed to the 2008 lifting of CITES restrictions that has allowed African countries to sell their stockpiles to China and Japan.
Re:African wildlife officials appalled as EU opposes a total... by soyiuz on Friday July 08, 2016 @04:22PM (#12058374)
Some of the most convincing evidence comes from American prohibition of alcohol and the drug wars. Basic economic principles dictate that the supply will expand to meet demand. As the demand is difficult to modulate, the strategy of regulating supply has been historically more effective.

The prohibition created a robust black market which all but disappeared when alcohol production came back into the light by legal means. The same logic should hold true for ivory through farming or artificial production (see several comments to this point above).

Re:African wildlife officials appalled as EU opposes a total... by duaneb on Friday July 08, 2016 @12:17PM (#12056629)
Do you have a source? I'm extremely skeptical and you didn't make an argument for it.
Re:African wildlife officials appalled as EU opposes a total... by adamnemecek on Friday July 08, 2016 @12:19PM (#12056640)
The current poaching crisis is generally attributed to the lifting of CITES restrictions in 2008 which let some African countries sell their ivory stockpiles to China and Japan. As a result, the consumption has skyrocketed.
Re:African wildlife officials appalled as EU opposes a total... by chrischen on Friday July 08, 2016 @01:36PM (#12057256)
The arguments I have heard for a legal market is that the rhino horns can be harvested without killing them, and that the black market trade encourages poachers to simply kill the rhinos to harvest.

Your turn.

Re:African wildlife officials appalled as EU opposes a total... by zymhan on Friday July 08, 2016 @01:41PM (#12057305)
What do you do with a Rhino that has no horn? It can't survive in the wild, and it has no economic value to justify keeping it on a farm.
Re:African wildlife officials appalled as EU opposes a total... by chrischen on Friday July 08, 2016 @01:49PM (#12057364)
People can come see the Rhinos, like a zoo, while their horns grow back.

http://www.bisbeesconservationfund.org/conservation/savether...

Re:African wildlife officials appalled as EU opposes a total... by adamnemecek on Friday July 08, 2016 @01:53PM (#12057391)
That doesn't stop poaching. It would only make rhinos extinct in the wild.
Re:African wildlife officials appalled as EU opposes a total... by chrischen on Friday July 08, 2016 @01:56PM (#12057409)
The goal is to have farmed rhinos out price killing wild rhinos, and you continue making killing wild rhinos illegal.
Re:African wildlife officials appalled as EU opposes a total... by adamnemecek on Friday July 08, 2016 @03:13PM (#12057941)
How do you outprice poachers when raising a rhino costs more than zero but poaching them costs effectively zero?
Re:African wildlife officials appalled as EU opposes a total... by akiselev on Friday July 08, 2016 @03:50PM (#12058175)
Poaching isn't effectively free, like many other illegal activities it carries risk of death or capture and imprisonment. By investing in enforcement you can drive up the risk and thus the price.
Re:African wildlife officials appalled as EU opposes a total... by kctess5 on Friday July 08, 2016 @12:16PM (#12056609)
Source?
Re:African wildlife officials appalled as EU opposes a total... by mamon on Friday July 08, 2016 @02:40PM (#12057751)
One more devastating thing is that whenever police make a ride on poachers and take over some ivory or rhino's horns they will burn them. Which decreases supply and increases black market price for them.

The wisest thing to do would be to give it away for free to anyone interested. That would ruin black market.

Re:African wildlife officials appalled as EU opposes a total... by adamnemecek on Friday July 08, 2016 @03:15PM (#12057949)
It would also condone use of ivory. It would also out the ivory back on the market.
Re:African wildlife officials appalled as EU opposes a total... by justicezyx on Friday July 08, 2016 @12:40PM (#12056815)
Bad is bad, no matter how small it is. Good is good, no mater how small it is.

It is not about changing the world overnight, it is about moving 1 inch every time.

Re:African wildlife officials appalled as EU opposes a total... by Someone on Friday July 08, 2016 @03:12PM (#12057928)
The PDF (http://ec.europa.eu/transparency/regdoc/rep/1/2016/EN/1-2016...) says:

"Oppose the transfer to Appendix I of the populations of BW, NA, ZA, ZW. These four national populations have an increasing population trend (tbc for Zimbabwe) and do not meet the criteria for transfer to Appendix I. Recognizing the efforts made by Southern African countries to sustainably manage their elephant population and combat poaching, those countries should better be encouraged to pursue their efforts"

The PDF also says, for Namibia and Zimbabwe:

"Given the continuous high levels of elephant poaching and illegal ivory trade, it is premature to agree on a resumption of trade. The efforts by Namibia for wildlife conservation and to combat poaching and illegal trade should nonetheless be recognised and further encouraged."

So, as is often the case, a nuanced statement by the EU that gets misrepresented in the press.

Moving elephants to appendix I would make it harder or even prohibit South Africa, Botswana, Namibia and Zimbabwe, countries where the elephant population grows, to shoot down elephants to keep their total number under control.

What the EU says basically is that those countries should be allowed to shoot elephants (in theory, that would give them the freedom to kill all 'their' elephants, but they aren't that stupid, as it would kill tourism, too.) but that Botswana and Namibia shouldn't be allowed to sell the ivory to (partly) make up for the costs they make for protecting their wildlife. South Africa and Botswana apparently are deemed to have poaching under control.

I guess this means there are ways to determine where an elephant lived from its teeth. That's not surprising, given that we can do that for humans, too.

Re:African wildlife officials appalled as EU opposes a total... by mc32 on Friday July 08, 2016 @12:12PM (#12056571)
If China can get on board, surely the EU can.
Re:African wildlife officials appalled as EU opposes a total... by csn on Friday July 08, 2016 @12:48PM (#12056869)
What other interests should the EU have on this topic? Genuinely interested in people's views.