I use the word because, based on his actions, I think he does not have empathy for other people. He knowingly defrauded thousands of people, often depleting all of their savings. The scale of his fraud, and the length of time he perpetuated it, is staggering.

Brains don't handle scale well. Defrauding a thousand people can be easier empathy-wise than defrauding a single person, because it's a statistic rather than an individual. You cannot use the total scale in trying to judge whether someone has empathy.

The impulse to associate 'bad actions' with 'inherently bad people' can make it harder for people to realize when they are acting badly and to pull out.

http://www.npr.org/2012/05/01/151764534/psychology-of-fraud-...

Madoff was quite unusual because he was very actively involved in the upperclass Jewish philanthropic community. It's also where most of his victims came from.

That's one of the reasons he was able to get away with it for so long. People assumed that he wouldn't steal from members of his own community like that. So most observers assumed he found a way to front run trades on his other funds without getting caught, and were looking for evidence of that.

Right, empathy or sympathy would have meant that among other options, in his continued lies to investors, "We made a very bad trade, got into Company X, who went bankrupt / were delisted". He could have shut it down. He chose not to.

I don't know, his investors were mostly rich people wanting to get richer. I don't feel empathy for those people either.

> but I think people on the internet throw out the "sociopath" label way too freely.

Not an argument.

> And I certainly wouldn't apply it to Bernie Madoff or Holmes based on what I know of their situations.

Not an argument.

If you're going to disagree with someone, generally, some logic as to why is useful, not just "I don't agree". Madoff certainly deserves that label, he ruined lives by running the biggest investment scam in history: he clearly didn't in any way care about what happened to those other people, completely lacking in empathy, they were used and discarded.

What definition of "sociopath" are you using here? How do you third-hand diagnose a man as completely lacking in empathy? Can we somehow use this skill for good instead of boring internet commentary?

I'm not third hand diagnosing anyone, I'm not diagnosing anyone, and I'm not the one who even brought up the term sociopath as I'm not the OP; I simply said he deserves the label given what he's done. So if you're bored, feel free to go somewhere else.

I would stay away from the term sociopath because whether or not someone is a sociopath depends entirely on their feelings. And it's quite clearly impossible to know the emotions of another person and whether they experienced guilt/remorse/regret/empathy for their actions, regardless of their facial expressions.

I've also read the Nuremberg Diary. That book, and Hannah Arendt's famous phrase "banality of evil" have influenced my thinking in this area. People who do very bad things are not necessarily "less than human" or "exceptionally inhuman," although it's easy to make that assumption.

Anyway, I think the concept of a sociopath is entirely theoretical. Until we can scientifically determine what someone is feeling by hooking them up to a machine and reading their emotions as we present them with various scenarios (i.e. a Voigt-Kampff device) then why even bother throwing around such a sensationalized word?

As far as Madoff goes, I never understood the obsession with branding him as notably evil. He stole a lot of money from a lot of people and lied to a lot of people. But the notoriety of that case has more to do with him being an upstanding member of society i.e. "the last person you would expect" (also the scale of the fraud). I don't believe his theft is morally more egregious than millions of other thefts that are committed every day.

Psychopaths actually have reduced activity in the orbital cortex of the brain, which can be objectively measured. Not sure if it's a feature of all true psychopaths, but it's apparently quite common.

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-a-psychopath-brain-looks...

Declaring that someone must clearly have no empathy because they hurt people they didn't even know is also not an argument.

Actually it is an argument as that's one of the defining characteristics of the condition, it's not a great argument because I don't know how he feels, but it's more than just "I disagree" which is no argument at all. In any case, I'm not the OP, I didn't call him a sociopath, I merely said he deserved the label.

How much empathy do you have for the hundreds of people dying in car crashes each day? Not much, or you'd be crippled. It is ridiculous to look at low empathy for strangers and declare no empathy for anyone. So you don't even reach the prerequisite that would let you start to talk about the manifestations of sociopathy.

Bernies victims weren't strangers to him, your point is a strawman.

Do you have some info to back that up? A quote like "worked the so-called 'Jewish circuit' of well-heeled Jews he met at country clubs on Long Island and in Palm Beach." doesn't make it sound like these were people he knew well.

(And taking a loan from a friend while it was collapsing is a sign of desperation, something anyone could do, so don't quote me that particular interaction.)

You're moving the goal post, having empathy for people you've met and conned is in no way comparable to empathizing over countless victims of car crashes of people you've never met; car crash victims are a statistic, his marks were people he met and conned into investing. Google for five minutes, plenty of his victims met him, these weren't statistics, they were people he stole from using his charm. If you want to sit here and try to defend Madoff, be my guest because clearly, you just want to argue, so I'm done listening.

Not every sleezy salesperson in the world is a sociopath. You can meet someone in a business context without caring much about them, while not being a sociopath.

It's not 'defending' someone's actions to say that there is no proof of an extreme lack of empathy.

> Not every sleezy salesperson in the world is a sociopath.

Strawman, never said they were. You're arguing with yourself now.