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Re:Introducing OpenCellular: An open source wireless access ... by paavokoya on Wednesday July 06, 2016 @05:20PM (#12045967)
Honest question, what are the purposes of these licenses/fees other than to take money from citizens? If a village in the middle of nowhere builds this infrastructure to serve their own community what could go wrong without licensing?
Re:Introducing OpenCellular: An open source wireless access ... by grandalf on Wednesday July 06, 2016 @05:53PM (#12046123)
The spectrum is a public good, and it is scarce. License fees benefit the public.

Of course, content providers and infrastructure providers do not buy licenses altruistically.

I think we're seeing Facebook being willing to invest in tech and potentially license fees because the ROI of having Facebook in a village can be estimated and offering this hardware looks like a worthwhile investment.

While this sounds like a cynical perspective, it is not. Suppose a typical company would analyze the ROI and conclude that if the payout doesn't happen in 2 years it is not worth it.

Facebook may be considering a 10 year ROI and thus may be acting both selfishly and also taking on infrastructure risk that has suffered from market failure until 2016 since no providers of first world infrastructure have opted to invest.

In a capitalist utopia, anything with positive ROI would receive investment, and all risks could be accurately hedged, allowing all available capital to be fully utilized.

Re:Introducing OpenCellular: An open source wireless access ... by GregBuchholz on Wednesday July 06, 2016 @07:31PM (#12046574)
>The spectrum is a public good, and it is scarce.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-wideband

Re:Introducing OpenCellular: An open source wireless access ... by grandalf on Wednesday July 06, 2016 @08:38PM (#12046832)
As __jal points out, Ultra-wideband does not solve the problem because while it may in some cases be useable alongside existing allocations, it does not ultimately increase the information capacity of a particular piece of spectrum.

There may be some circumstances where it can help, but it does not eliminate scarcity.

Re:Introducing OpenCellular: An open source wireless access ... by __jal on Wednesday July 06, 2016 @07:58PM (#12046685)
I assume that you consider the link to refute the 'scarce' part.

It doesn't.

Re:Introducing OpenCellular: An open source wireless access ... by eatbitseveryday on Thursday July 07, 2016 @12:18AM (#12047455)
It is often useful to support statements such as these.
Re:Introducing OpenCellular: An open source wireless access ... by Johnythree on Thursday July 07, 2016 @01:21AM (#12047601)
A fellow by the name of Claude Shannon wrote a book about it.

Ultra-Wideband doesn't create new bandwidth. It just re-uses the existing spectrum in a different way.

And by raising the general background noise it steals bandwidth from all the other users, so everybody is worse off.

Or to put it another way "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch".

Re:Introducing OpenCellular: An open source wireless access ... by GregBuchholz on Thursday July 07, 2016 @11:28AM (#12049927)
Scarcity by itself doesn't seem a significant enough aspect to warrant the FCC regulation that we have though. Think of other scarce resources like platinum. If ultra-wide band (or similar) technology was used back in the 1920's, I don't think the push for regulation would have been as strong, since jamming / interference wouldn't have been a driver. I think we've got a technical solution to the original social problem, it is just that it arrived 100 years later.

https://www.shoretel.com/history-federal-communications-comm...

Re:Introducing OpenCellular: An open source wireless access ... by __jal on Friday July 08, 2016 @08:00PM (#12059404)
Scarcity in physical objects is rather different than spectrum. For one, market demand encourages things like recycling, more exploration, etc. for platinum. Spectrum scarcity encourages more efficient use, but until we get our promised physics-violation-devices, can't make/find more.

With spectrum, there's also a real-time use component. People who consume platinum generally don't consume it in a way that in any way resembles communication use. This is related to another key reason governments hold on to the control of spectrum allocation: military interests.

Re:Introducing OpenCellular: An open source wireless access ... by grandalf on Thursday July 07, 2016 @12:00PM (#12050134)
This is an interesting point. Using spread spectrum techniques would increase the cost of the radio hardware involved, and might hinder adoption.

Also, there would need to be regulations on signal quality, since a bad citizen in a shared-spectrum scheme adversely impacts others.

Re:Introducing OpenCellular: An open source wireless access ... by paavokoya on Wednesday July 06, 2016 @06:00PM (#12046152)
>In a capitalist utopia, anything with positive ROI would receive investment

Yes. Including arbitrary licenses enforced by local governments to raise the barrier to entry and restrict interconnected innovation through forcing all players to route through a central (likely selfish) entity. This does not benefit the public.

Re:Introducing OpenCellular: An open source wireless access ... by narrator on Wednesday July 06, 2016 @06:56PM (#12046405)
You are referring to license monopoly. There are actually three kinds of local monopolies: margin monopoly, limited-space monopoly and license monopoly. Von Mises does a very good survey of these types of monopolies, monopoly prices and the conditions under which each exists [1]. Von Mises is a very deep thinker on this topic from a classical liberal perspective. He does agree that monopolies exist, but takes care to define the conditions under which they can exist. If a government wants to provide the best competitive environment, there are steps that can be taken to mitigate monopoly conditions from arising.

[1]. https://mises.org/library/human-action-0/html/pp/764

Re:Introducing OpenCellular: An open source wireless access ... by grandalf on Wednesday July 06, 2016 @06:31PM (#12046322)
> Yes. Including arbitrary licenses enforced by local governments

Not sure how a corrupt government is part of your definition of a capitalist utopia.

In my definition of a capitalist utopia, there exists the optimal amount of regulation to maximize long term welfare. This means no regulations that benefit the next 3 years at the expense of the future, and also none that benefit the next 20 at the expense of the longer-term future. Regulations that do exist are consistently enforced without corruption or bureaucratic waste.

In our actual (non-utopian) system, most regulations have the side-effect of benefitting one constituency or interest group over another, or one relevant time-horizon over another (most are profoundly short-sighted).

Also, in a capitalist utopia there would be administrative districts that would allow for various regulatory schemes to be tested and compared scientifically, so even if one local government did make the mistake of offering a state-sponsored monopoly, the mistake would quickly be realized and corrected.

Re:Introducing OpenCellular: An open source wireless access ... by __jal on Wednesday July 06, 2016 @08:11PM (#12046729)
> most regulations have the side-effect of benefitting one constituency or interest group over another

Well, yes. One of the functions of government is to adjudicate incompatible desires.

This doesn't mean it always should, but something is going to play that role, and if it isn't a government, it is something that will be called a government once the shooting stops.

Re:Introducing OpenCellular: An open source wireless access ... by dragonwriter on Wednesday July 06, 2016 @06:37PM (#12046342)
Optimizing social welfare (regardless of time window) through regulation isn't capitalism at all.
Re:Introducing OpenCellular: An open source wireless access ... by cmdrfred on Wednesday July 06, 2016 @07:56PM (#12046679)
It's American capitalism. We just lost our way.

"Servants, labourers and workmen of different kinds, make up the far greater part of every great political society. But what improves the circumstances of the greater part can never be regarded as an inconvenience to the whole. No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable. It is but equity, besides, that they who feed, clothe, and lodge the whole body of the people, should have such a share of the produce of their own labour as to be themselves tolerably well fed, clothed and lodged." - Adam Smith

Re:Introducing OpenCellular: An open source wireless access ... by grandalf on Thursday July 07, 2016 @12:57AM (#12047540)
Exactly, just as democracy is a way to maximize the power of the average person, capitalism is a way to maximize her economic freedom.
Re:Introducing OpenCellular: An open source wireless access ... by grandalf on Wednesday July 06, 2016 @08:35PM (#12046812)
Admittedly since children cannot vote our government will always be biased toward the interests of adults and will operate on a time horizon that steals from the future to benefit the present.

However in a utopian version, perhaps there would be some mechanism by which the longer-term interests of children could be represented democratically.

I would also argue that in a capitalist utopia there would not be things that we typically call market failures, since institutions would emerge to solve the problems based on market incentives.

Also, I'm not arguing that a capitalist utopia could exist, just that it is sometimes useful to offer contrast to the idea that big firms must somehow have an enlightened and altruistic vision in order to make investments like the one in the article. It could in fact just be the true north of the profit motive animating longer-term planning than we typically see (due to perverse incentives that focus most businesses on very short-term planning).

Re:Introducing OpenCellular: An open source wireless access ... by jcrawfordor on Wednesday July 06, 2016 @05:54PM (#12046126)
Primarily, the fees are 1) a supply-demand response to spectrum contention (spectrum space ideal for use by mobile services is highly competitive in developed countries), and 2) go to fund expensive compliance regimes, like the expense of certification testing. This is required by industry and regulatory bodies to ensure that one manufacturer's lax quality does not adversely impact devices made by other manufacturers, which can unfortunately easily be a problem with modern radio.

At the end of the day, it's a response to the tragedy of the commons problem, designed on the theory of making the commons a lot less common (exclusively licensing sections of spectrum to approved users).

Re:Introducing OpenCellular: An open source wireless access ... by vvanders on Wednesday July 06, 2016 @05:33PM (#12046042)
My naive understanding is it's to pay for enforcement of interference. Not sure how far LTE bands go but UHF/VHF will propagate ~80mi radius if placed on a high enough vantage point.
Re:Introducing OpenCellular: An open source wireless access ... by Johnythree on Wednesday July 06, 2016 @09:50PM (#12047034)
One of the myths is that spectrum "in the middle of nowhere" is unused.

Most third world countries have enthusiastically adoped mobile phones and have leap-frogged the creation of landline networks.

The result of this is two-fold: The Radio Spectrum is heavily used, and also very inefficiently used as so much traffic which should be carried by landlines is forced onto mobile networks.

If you've traveled in remote areas of Thailand, Cambodia or even Laos, you'll be aware of the incredible penetration of mobile phones and even the Internet.

Re:Introducing OpenCellular: An open source wireless access ... by wmf on Wednesday July 06, 2016 @11:56PM (#12047405)
OTOH, it sounds like this project is aimed at places that do not currently have any cellular coverage.
Re:Introducing OpenCellular: An open source wireless access ... by Johnythree on Thursday July 07, 2016 @12:59AM (#12047550)
Such as? If they don't already it will because of local unrest and lawlessness, not from the lack of local entrepreneurs.