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Re:Ethereum Protocol Developer Holds $115k Worth of DAO Tokens by noshbrinken on Wednesday June 29, 2016 @10:18PM (#12006185)
I keep seeing this idea invoked over and over again, and it's starting to bug me. The problem with this idea is that it conflates technical decentralization and the spirit or ideals of decentralization. The latter can be betrayed or degraded even while the former is preserved. Just because the miners aren't compelled by the network architecture to implement a fork doesn't mean that there aren't social dynamics which have the effect of centralizing decisions made by those miners. "Consensus" doesn't have any inherent value or rightness. Consensus is just a majority of a group electing to do something. In the world of the decentralized web, consensus is positive only when network nodes are truly acting autonomously. It's best when this means that each node acts in self-interest, without regard for or in ignorance of the interests or positions of the other nodes. This is not what's happening on the Ethereum network. There's a huge amount of coordination. Ethereum is a network that hasn't individuated itself from a relatively small group of creators/maintainers/community members. As long as the network depends on these people for strength and stability, the miners will be biased to carry out the wishes of those people. Otherwise the miners risk losing whatever value they've accrued through their work. So yes, the fork only happens through a consensus of the miners. But it hasn't been established that the miners are capable of independent action.
Re:Ethereum Protocol Developer Holds $115k Worth of DAO Tokens by andrepd on Wednesday June 29, 2016 @10:22PM (#12006201)
But what's your point? Ethereum is not decentralised because... there are social dynamics? What do you want to do about it? The protocol is decentralised, the technology is completely agnostic to anything but the will of the majority. Of course there will be social dynamics and people will discuss things and read things and coordinate and influence one another. That does not invalidate the whole thing.
Re:Ethereum Protocol Developer Holds $115k Worth of DAO Tokens by drewcrawford on Wednesday June 29, 2016 @11:34PM (#12006391)
Suppose for a minute the miners and the software developers disagreed strongly on some important decision. What do you think would happen?

* Would the software developers suck it up and follow the miners?

* Would the pool of software developers shrink because various developers do not find implementing the will of the miners to be an enjoyable hobby and/or job anymore?

* Would the miners hire new software developers to replace the ones that leave?

* Would there be a fork?

I don't know, but pretending that "the protocol is decentralised, the technology is completely agnostic to anything but the will of the majority" is ignoring the realpolitik of this kind of situation.

Saying that Ethereum implements the will of the majority is like saying American democracy implements the will of the majority. Sort of? But meanwhile there are a lot of empirical studies [0] demonstrating that the will of the people has little to no influence over American public policy. A democratic financial system is much more corruptible than a democratic political system.

[0] https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/fi...

Re:Ethereum Protocol Developer Holds $115k Worth of DAO Tokens by bduerst on Wednesday June 29, 2016 @11:23PM (#12006369)
I think the point they're making is that there's this common "Fallacy of the Census", which is like an appeal to popularity.

By only saying that the problems will sort themselves out because a census controls the network doesn't address the other factors that can be influencing the decisions of the majority. Essentially a census-controlled network isn't infallible (i.e. bitcoin block size debate).

Re:Ethereum Protocol Developer Holds $115k Worth of DAO Tokens by oillio on Wednesday June 29, 2016 @11:35PM (#12006393)
We have to assume Satoshi saw this problem and actually did something about it.

No one can come out and say, "We must change bitcoin. You should follow me because I created it."

By removing the founder role, Bitcoin is just that much more decentralized.

Re:Ethereum Protocol Developer Holds $115k Worth of DAO Tokens by aakilfernandes on Thursday June 30, 2016 @12:04AM (#12006483)
I like the Ethereum has a founder and leadership team. I just want them to use their influence wisely.
Re:Ethereum Protocol Developer Holds $115k Worth of DAO Tokens by soconfused1 on Thursday June 30, 2016 @03:57AM (#12007164)
It is better without it. Their leadership position is a bigger liability than it helps.
Re:Ethereum Protocol Developer Holds $115k Worth of DAO Tokens by oillio on Thursday June 30, 2016 @12:31AM (#12006578)
Yeah, recent events show the lack of leadership causes its own problems.
Re:Ethereum Protocol Developer Holds $115k Worth of DAO Tokens by _98fj on Thursday June 30, 2016 @02:43AM (#12006977)
That reminds me of philosophic "free will". Am I really free to choose or are my thoughts and surroundings "forcing me" towards.

If the miners freely agree to accept a fork, were they really free in their decision or did they do it because of peer-pressure or because humans like to preserve groups more than anything else?

On the other hand: What would need to happen to "prove" independency of the organization?

Re:Ethereum Protocol Developer Holds $115k Worth of DAO Tokens by eternalban on Thursday June 30, 2016 @06:55AM (#12007691)
> The latter can be betrayed or degraded even while the former is preserved.

Yes, just like a constitution. System architecture (political or otherwise) can not save mankind from the failings (of a subset) of itself.

Re:Ethereum Protocol Developer Holds $115k Worth of DAO Tokens by kaiwen1 on Thursday June 30, 2016 @07:15AM (#12007757)
However, use of cryptocurrencies is opt in and thus caveat emptor. The constitution OTOH is not opt-in, nor for practical purposes opt-out. You're shackled to it at birth.