I suspect you're viewing my previous comment as a criticism of ORMs. I tried to make it clear that it was not a criticism of ORMs. It's more a criticism of people who try use ORMs to whitewash a bad design or get around a problem that relational databases can't solve. Relational databases lend themselves to a very specific way of structuring data, and if you don't structure your data that way or your data can't be structured that way, an ORM won't fix it. That doesn't mean ORMs are bad, it means that ORMs have to be used as intended and often people don't use them as intended. That's not the fault of the ORM any more than it's the fault of a screwdriver when it's used to saw wood.