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Re:UK votes to leave EU by coldtea on Friday June 24, 2016 @06:20AM (#11968469)
>A very sad day for everyone in Europe.

I don't know, I'm pretty glad myself.

>The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together.

Only there is not much "growing together". Besides the bureaucracy there were certain large countries (and alliances) pissing all over smaller ones, in things from trade agreements to fiscal policies and other decisions.

A lot of people seem to value vague unity, but this was the opposite of democracy, where rampant groups with no official standing (the ad-hoc "Eurogroup" for one) and bodies no one voted for, where ruling a whole continent.

So, valuing this kind of faux unity is, for me, like saying "It was nice when the US, Canada, India, Australia, England, Scotland, Ireland etc were united -- under British rule".

>so that there are no arbitrary geographic borders limiting the freedom and the rights of the individual

Borders in Europe are the opposite of arbitrary: they are based on culture, history, economy, popular revolutions, sovereignty, and lots of other factors.

(In a continent like Africa yes, a lot of borders are arbitrary, because they were decided and drawn on some map from colonial powers dividing their lands -- the will of the local people, culture, etc be damned).

And borders are not some plight on the "individual". They are a large-scale extension of their individuality -- ensuring the individuality and independence of their way of life at a larger scale.

There's a whole order of magnitude difference of 350 million people (most of which have different cultures and priorities, not to mention interests) voting for what happens in your country of 30 or 20 million. Even worse when the decision is left to some bureaucrats in the pockets of big business.

>In my eyes, the EU was very much about the same thing. It didn't matter in which part of the EU you lived or had your business. Being part of the EU granted you rights and equal access to the rest of Europe.

Well, if you could have that without the political power plays, coercion, disregard for democracy, and plundering of lesser countries, that would be great.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by jdmichal on Friday June 24, 2016 @10:23AM (#11969956)
I think you hit on something that's been bothering me here in the US too: The federalization of state freedom. That is, when a super-state entity like the EU or US federal government passes laws which restrict the freedom of the states to implement their own distinct solutions.

I'm not super familiar with the EU agreements, but the US Constitution was supposed to restrict federal power over the states. An unfortunate loophole was found through taxes. Citizens pay federal taxes, then some amount of those taxes flows back into state power. The federal laws I'm discussing don't have criminal or even civil penalties, but rather restrict or eliminate this flow of funds unless the will of the federal government is met. Sure, the states can technically do whatever they want, but these are very large funding streams that they will be missing out on. That's like saying I can technically choose to not work... It's true, but it's also a sure way to end up in a bad spot.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by erichocean on Saturday June 25, 2016 @12:45PM (#11976920)
The Supreme Court does seem to reign in that technicality (as you put it). For instance, there were some provisions of Obamacare tied to funding that that the SC voted were invalid.

But in general, you're correct. Incidentally, this change is actually Constitutionally-valid in some sense, in that a Constitutional amendment needed to be passed (income tax) in order to give the Federal gov't the money to bully the states in the first place.

Re:UK votes to leave EU by FungalRaincloud on Friday June 24, 2016 @08:43AM (#11969325)
While I feel like voting to leave is the wrong step here, and will undoubtedly lead to some problems in the immediate future, I do find some truth in your post. The unity of the EU has always felt ethereal to me. It has never felt like the EU was one entity. I'm hoping that this sparks a movement toward something that IS more unified, and more representative of the needs of the individual member states. Even if the EU dissolves entirely, perhaps this will mean adoption of common treaties and policies that are drafted during the preparation of the UK to leave.
Re:UK votes to leave EU by johnminter on Saturday June 25, 2016 @11:53AM (#11976736)
I agree with you. I thought that both Jacob Rees Mogg and Nigel Farange made some pretty strong cases for a lack of ability to have a fair hearing for redress of grievances. Mogg relates the story of a constituent who was a farmer and had a cow die between Christmas and New Years when the post office had limited staff. The farmer had mailed the forms on time and the holiday hours caused them to be received late in Brussels and the farmer was fined. When Mogg wrote a second time, he was told someone would pay the fine: either the UK or the farmer. Bureaucracy has risen to idiotic proportions.

Farange reported the moves between offices that occurred twice a month and the lavish EU spending on administration. Both noted there was no way for the people to vote down laws or vote out these bureaucrats.

Statist bureaucrats too often spend the people's money with little regard for return on investment. They are the brightest people in the room - just ask them. They don't face the same restraining force as the business owner whose customers can go elsewhere if they don't think they are getting value for their money. As the Brexit folks framed the issue, this was about being responsive to the people, giving them the ability to vote out the whole lot and get others who will be responsive to the people paying the bill.

We have the same problem here in the US. There really is little difference between the establishment Democrats and Republicans. All are big government types who focus on policies that benefit their big donors. They are spending us into oblivion and devaluing all our assets by flooding the economy with more printed fiat currency. Our unfunded future liabilities are even worse. We need to do our own house cleaning.

So I say "Happy Independence Day" to the folks in the UK and hope my neighbors are looking closely enough at our own situation and will will band together to do our own house cleaning this November.