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Re:Europe's robots to become 'electronic persons' under draf... by yaacov on Wednesday June 22, 2016 @03:20PM (#11956298)
I can't tell what this is supposed to mean. Taxing employers for using robots as if they were human employees might be a good idea. But giving robots 'rights and obligations' as if they were human is totally insane.
Re:Europe's robots to become 'electronic persons' under draf... by Mendenhall on Wednesday June 22, 2016 @03:37PM (#11956412)
They just want taxes and the ability to control robots "replacing" workers.
Re:Europe's robots to become 'electronic persons' under draf... by RivieraKid on Wednesday June 22, 2016 @04:33PM (#11956779)
Why tax companies for becoming more productive though. Especially considering that international competitors which are not taxed would take their market share. People often don't realize that the company won't necessarily make more money once it starts using robots - in competetive markets, profits approach zero.

The real problem with automation is that it might (or not) increase the inequality in the value of human labour. The solution is income redistribution.

Re:Europe's robots to become 'electronic persons' under draf... by unclebucknasty on Wednesday June 22, 2016 @03:29PM (#11956356)
I can see a case for obligations much more than I can see one for rights.
Re:Europe's robots to become 'electronic persons' under draf... by ocdtrekkie on Wednesday June 22, 2016 @03:49PM (#11956483)
Well, someday we might inevitably need to discuss robot rights, but that'd be somewhere past the point where we can declare a robot a sentient being. ;)
Re:Europe's robots to become 'electronic persons' under draf... by getgoingnow on Wednesday June 22, 2016 @04:00PM (#11956558)
Why is being 'sentient' (a vague term) a requirement for something to have rights?
Re:Europe's robots to become 'electronic persons' under draf... by allemagne on Wednesday June 22, 2016 @04:39PM (#11956824)
I'm certain in this context "rights" refers to the rights regularly afforded to human beings (as in the european proposal), not to the rights we might assign to non-sentient animals.

In any case, it seems to me that we don't understand consciousness and life enough to truly define any requirement for rights any better than the meaning of 'sentience'.

Re:Europe's robots to become 'electronic persons' under draf... by drivingmenuts on Wednesday June 22, 2016 @04:35PM (#11956794)
Until it is sentient, it's just a hammer with pre-programmed response. After that, it can define itself.
Re:Europe's robots to become 'electronic persons' under draf... by getgoingnow on Wednesday June 22, 2016 @05:01PM (#11956995)
So, sentient means 'having the ability to learn new things' ? Kinda like humans, who are born with certain instincts, but are then able to learn new things or 're-program' themselves.

Well, there is a filed called 'machine learning', which helps design robots who will be able to learn. If they are able to learn and exhibit intelligent behavior, then we have to treat them as something more than rocks or hammers.

That is what the document is referring to - not pre-programmed robots, but AIs (robots who are able to learn, perceive, change behavior etc.).

Re:Europe's robots to become 'electronic persons' under draf... by drivingmenuts on Wednesday June 22, 2016 @05:17PM (#11957097)
> it can define itself.

I think you might have missed the full implication of that part.

Certainly, a sentient being can learn new things, but that's a matter of rule-base and memory. No actual intelligence required, IMO. Sentience, to me, goes toward a concept of self. Of being aware that one exists and is responsible for one's own actions.

Personally, I fine with having really smart-but-not-sentient hammers. I'd rather not have to lard up machinery with some touchy-feely "it's alive" sentiment. We won't have to have lots of hand-waving over whether or not that hammer is a slave or not.

If we can have an army of dumb robots performing the work that slaves do now more efficiently and cheaply, then we can easily spot the slave owners and remove them.

Re:Europe's robots to become 'electronic persons' under draf... by jean_claude on Wednesday June 22, 2016 @06:21PM (#11957500)
>> Certainly, a sentient being can learn new things, but that's a matter of rule-base and memory. No actual intelligence required, IMO. Sentience, to me, goes toward a concept of self. Of being aware that one exists and is responsible for one's own actions.

I think sentience is somewhat more limited. Most animals are sentient, in that they can feel and perceive and learn from experiences. Few animals besides humans are sapient, in that they can reason about complex and abstract ideas separate from direct experience, have a sense of self, and other criteria.

Re:Europe's robots to become 'electronic persons' under draf... by getgoingnow on Wednesday June 22, 2016 @07:21PM (#11957835)

  No actual intelligence required, IMO.
This is a trick. What does 'actual intelligence' mean? Term 'intelligence' is already vague, so adding 'actual' creates even more confusion.

  Sentience, to me, goes toward a concept of self. Of being aware that one exists and is responsible for one's own actions.
Responsibility is a social construct. In the past, people would put non-human animals on trial, because in those societies other animals had responsibility for their acts. When it comes to awareness, that's a very vague thing and I'm not sure how you would test it without asking the subject (who might be fooling you). Also, why would having an attribute such as 'awareness' be a reason not to enslave someone who has the attribute?
Re:Europe's robots to become 'electronic persons' under draf... by drivingmenuts on Wednesday June 22, 2016 @11:54PM (#11958749)
It may be a gray area, but I, personally, have a moral and ethical bias against slavery and those who condone or enable it.

A hammer cannot be enslaved. A robot that is not sentient cannot be enslaved. I am against making something of that ilk that can be enslaved. Not because I disagree with the act of creation, but because I am against slavery.

It's not necessary to create sentience in our tools. Leave them as tools. It saves time, effort and anguish.

And I won't have to go to war with a slaveholder.