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Re:The Fathers of the Internet Urge Today’s Software Enginee... by paganel on Sunday June 19, 2016 @05:26PM (#11934757)
> Zooko threw cold water on everybody ("Is this just 1999 again?")

I have all the respect in the world for people like Vint Cerf, but the fact that he mentioned "copyright" and "intellectual property" twice in his list of otherwise quite interesting proposals make me doubtful about "1999" ever making a come-back. (I personally view the 1999-2005 or so period as a "good" one for the Internet, all of the dreams of that period have mostly been shattered by now).

I only came online in 2000, so to speak, but I distinctly remember that back in those days IP and copyrights were the last things on people's minds. Things like Napster and Audiogalaxy were pushing the Internet forward, and you can look at Wikipedia as "infringing" on the British Encyclopedia's rights to be the ultimate encyclopedia or you might take a second, more cautionary look, at the fact that Google built its business and its current $500+ billion status on stealing other websites' content and storing it on their servers.

Re:The Fathers of the Internet Urge Today’s Software Enginee... by wturner on Sunday June 19, 2016 @06:04PM (#11934926)
Jaron Lanier has written about the hallowing out of the middle class due to intellectual and creative property being accepted as "free on the internet". As it stands the Googles of the world have private servers, patents and proprietary technology, ( and the money to protect themselves) but Google can scrape the creative resources of billions of individuals without paying them. In that regard a return to creative/intellectual property rights specifically for individuals might be a forward thinking move assuming it leads to payouts. I know the details are more complicated ( and I might be wrong) but I thought I would chime in.
Re:The Fathers of the Internet Urge Today’s Software Enginee... by toyg on Sunday June 19, 2016 @07:53PM (#11935345)
The middle class has never been involved in creative IP in huge numbers. What they were involved in is a lot of officework which has been automated away, and union-protected jobs that have now disappeared. Stuff like designing presentations now done in Powerpoint, typing up reports now autogenerated, doing typographical work now completely removed, manning and stocking a shop you can now bypass with Amazon, distributing products to such shops which are now gone, raising ads for now-dead newspapers, managing factory processes that are now in China, working for local authorities now so cash-strapped they're literally bankrupt...

The IP industry actually boomed in the late '90s, as the Internet was booming. We now produce more IP content than ever before, selling to the entire planet. I don't see any relationship whatsoever between IP and middle-class crisis, tbh. Disintermediation simply kills people in the middle. Some of those middlemen might have been IP-related, but they were few.

Re:The Fathers of the Internet Urge Today’s Software Enginee... by edraferi on Monday June 20, 2016 @07:36AM (#11937336)
You should read his book, "Who Owns the Future?"

He was mainly talking about how hard it is for individuals to capture value they create online. For example, it's very difficult to make money off of a viral video, popular Pinterest page, or a niche blog. Basically, only the biggest silos have reasonable monetization options, and the individual users who are creating value get screwed.

I agree there's a technology gap there, as would anyone watching the adblocker war. My biggest criticism is economic: there are so many people online that massive supply dwarfs demand, pushing prices to zero (Exhibit A: journalism). Conveniently, zero is the only price you can really charge online, and you get a feedback loop.

Patreon is my favorite answer to this problem so far.

Re:The Fathers of the Internet Urge Today’s Software Enginee... by Natanael_L on Monday June 20, 2016 @10:00AM (#11938051)
That problem is entirely disconnected from the concept of IP. Draconian enforcement would kill Internet virality, not enable anybody to make money from it.

The real problem is to incentivize payment. As Valve says, piracy is a service problem. First your service must be wanted, then it must be valuable enough to pay for, and payment has to be easy too.

Re:The Fathers of the Internet Urge Today’s Software Enginee... by quadrangle on Sunday June 19, 2016 @10:22PM (#11935743)
Jaron Lanier also talks about a mythical 20th century that was good for middle-class artists and musicians, completely in contrast to evidence from reality.

He's 100% right that hollowing out of the middle class is a serious problem for a free society. His prescriptions about IP are mostly nonsense.

Re:The Fathers of the Internet Urge Today’s Software Enginee... by maus42 on Monday June 20, 2016 @01:49AM (#11936255)
I suspect some perception bias. There weren't that many artists and musicians around to have significant effect on the middle class whole (and artists and such weren't especially middle class).
Re:The Fathers of the Internet Urge Today’s Software Enginee... by Natanael_L on Monday June 20, 2016 @09:53AM (#11938007)
The Internet (including their imagined markets!) would be entirely dead without the likes of Google search. Those who see these technologies as infringing and as leeches have no understanding of where value comes from.
Re:The Fathers of the Internet Urge Today’s Software Enginee... by brokenmachine on Sunday June 19, 2016 @08:16PM (#11935420)
Google built its business and its current $500+ billion status on stealing other websites' content and storing it on their servers.

Can't anyone exclude their pages from being scraped by google if they so desire?

If you post something on a site that allows itself to be scraped, only then it will go on google.

Re:The Fathers of the Internet Urge Today’s Software Enginee... by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC on Monday June 20, 2016 @04:28AM (#11936772)
Practically, you can't, because Google has a quasi-monopoly on attention.

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect

Re:The Fathers of the Internet Urge Today’s Software Enginee... by brokenmachine on Wednesday June 22, 2016 @07:37PM (#11957899)
My point was that it is misleading to say that Google is "stealing" content because they are only indexing pages that don't opt-out of being indexed.
Re:The Fathers of the Internet Urge Today’s Software Enginee... by Gracana on Monday June 20, 2016 @12:30AM (#11936054)
Or if anybody else posts anything about you on such a site.
Re:The Fathers of the Internet Urge Today’s Software Enginee... by Natanael_L on Monday June 20, 2016 @10:04AM (#11938075)
Trivially with robots.txt, which is standardized and so well known among anybody doing webservers that not having such a rule ought to be considered as consent.

About the same as the rule here in Sweden on filming - you're free to film in any private venue until told not to.

Re:The Fathers of the Internet Urge Today’s Software Enginee... by mathattack on Sunday June 19, 2016 @09:25PM (#11935591)
I think Zooko was being negative on 1999. As in "the last year of the party."