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Re:Y Combinator's Xerox Alto: restoring the legendary 1970s ... by pjmlp on Saturday June 18, 2016 @01:39PM (#11929682)
This was a great system.

The more I research into Xerox's papers and manuals for Interlisp-D, Smalltalk and Mesa/Cedar systems, the more I become convinced it was a big step back to the industry the adoption of inferior systems like UNIX.

Thankfully many traces of those ideas are now in Windows, Mac OS X, Android and iOS, Language Playgrounds and many IDE workflows.

Re:Y Combinator's Xerox Alto: restoring the legendary 1970s ... by zackmorris on Saturday June 18, 2016 @02:15PM (#11929866)
I agree. UNIX has some brilliant ideas, like isolated functions (executables) connected by streams, but beyond that it made a lot of mistakes that we are still dealing with today.

The biggest one being a C-centric view of programming that has cost the world untold billions of dollars when dealing with untrusted data. It could have used a statically analyzable functional middleware of some kind, falling back to micro optimization only when needed - the way that Clojure works with say, JavaScript.

The other major failing that I see is overlooking ideas from ZFS, that the filesystem can act as a virtual tree over any storage medium, so UNIX wastes a lot of time on things like dependency hell, permissions, and distinguishing between file and socket streams or local and remote processors. It could have jailed each process in its own sandbox where copies of libraries are reference counted by the filesystem, running in a virtual storage and thread space. We're just now seeing the power of that with Vagrant and Docker (technically it took so long to get here due to virtualization resistance by Microsoft and Intel).

My other main gripe is more about approach than technology. UNIX (and LINUX especially) stagnated decades ago due to the RTFM philosophy. The idea being that to be proficient in UNIX, one had to learn the entirety of the operating system. This goes against one of the main tenets of computer science, that we are standing on the shoulders of giants. So I really appreciate how passionately the Alto tried to make computing and programming approachable to the masses.

I keep hoping someone will release a portable lisp machine that can run other OSs under virtualization and release us from these antiquated methodologies..

Re:Y Combinator's Xerox Alto: restoring the legendary 1970s ... by jacquesm on Saturday June 18, 2016 @02:49PM (#11930019)
> The biggest one being a C-centric view of programming that has cost the world untold billions of dollars when dealing with untrusted data.

That's pretty simple to explain: all those other options were just way too slow to get the kind of performance required out of the hardware available at the time. The difference was simply too large to be ignored.

It's all nice and good to theorize about how the past should have been, but without UNIX you probably wouldn't be writing any of this on the medium you're currently using.

It has its flaws and it is far from perfect but at the time it fit the bill nicely.

The real problem is that we are categorically unable to move on when better options are around. There is a large amount of silliness involved when it comes to making responsible choices in computing, lots of ego, lots of NIH. Those are the real problems, not that UNIX was written in C.

Re:Y Combinator's Xerox Alto: restoring the legendary 1970s ... by pjmlp on Saturday June 18, 2016 @04:45PM (#11930519)
> all those other options were just way too slow to get the kind of performance required out of the hardware available at the time. The difference was simply too large to be ignored.

If you compare with Xerox PARC hardware not really, the major issue was the price to produce the type of architecture they were having.

As for safe systems programming, Burroughs was already doing it a decade early in computer hardware much weaker than a PDP-11.

Re:Y Combinator's Xerox Alto: restoring the legendary 1970s ... by jacquesm on Saturday June 18, 2016 @05:31PM (#11930697)
Moore's law is essentially about density (and hence about price), not about speed, the speed was a side-effect.
Re:Y Combinator's Xerox Alto: restoring the legendary 1970s ... by digi_owl on Sunday June 19, 2016 @03:28AM (#11932150)
Kinda. Density allows for either speed or for price, and going for speed allowed the companies to hold the price fixed.
Re:Y Combinator's Xerox Alto: restoring the legendary 1970s ... by gaius on Saturday June 18, 2016 @05:25PM (#11930674)
The real problem is that we are categorically unable to move on when better options are around

Every 10 years or so the industry just restarts the same loop it's been stuck in since the Amiga (actually the Amiga is probably the first loop starting with the Alto) just with different syntax and faster hardware. Software is stagnant; ALL progress in in hardware. And with the end of Moore's Law that is grinding to a halt too.

Re:Y Combinator's Xerox Alto: restoring the legendary 1970s ... by jacquesm on Saturday June 18, 2016 @05:30PM (#11930692)
I have some hope that with the end of Moore's law in sight we will finally be able to concentrate on the software for some progress. All that we've achieved to date seems to be prettier way to squander cycles.

And in a way that's a real pity. It could have been that if Moore's law had been a doubling in 30 years rather than 18 months that we'd have had a lot more appreciation for writing good software. As it was the crap won out over the good stuff simply by being bailed out by Moore's law just in time for the next cycle.

But in some alternate universe hardware progress was so slow that any gains had to come from better software.

Re:Y Combinator's Xerox Alto: restoring the legendary 1970s ... by digi_owl on Sunday June 19, 2016 @03:26AM (#11932144)
> All that we've achieved to date seems to be prettier way to squander cycles.

And stack turtles.

Whenever i see a headline about unikernels, i envision doom running on DOS in a VM on top of Linux on top of some hardware somewhere. How many layers of (potentially leaky) abstractions are we looking at?

Re:Y Combinator's Xerox Alto: restoring the legendary 1970s ... by digi_owl on Monday June 20, 2016 @03:32AM (#11936617)
I find myself wonder if it is a problem of human computer IO.

The minimal set of reliable human computer interface is a keyboard and a screen. going beyond that quickly add either noise, delays, or both.

Re:Y Combinator's Xerox Alto: restoring the legendary 1970s ... by dave2000 on Saturday June 18, 2016 @03:11PM (#11930115)
> The biggest one being a C-centric view of programming that > has cost the world untold billions of dollars when dealing > with untrusted data.

I'm not sure it cost anyone anything. I mean, a lot of the OSes were/are written in it, so if you were going to go down that path you'd have to not totally forget to add a rather large benefit in the credit side. It's hard to imagine but programming wasn't always about compensating for not quite understanding how the 17 different frameworks you've downloaded from github and dragged into an IDE worked by just getting a faster machine. Once upon a time people had to carefully measure how much to unroll the loop, or how small a lookup table they could get away with before the errors become a problem.

Re:Y Combinator's Xerox Alto: restoring the legendary 1970s ... by pjmlp on Sunday June 19, 2016 @12:31AM (#11931780)
And that was already being done in the 60's with much better languages, but the UNIX revisionists don't like people spend time reading about Burroughs, Algol-68RS, PL/I, Mesa and many other languages provided by mainframe owners.
Re:Y Combinator's Xerox Alto: restoring the legendary 1970s ... by digi_owl on Saturday June 18, 2016 @02:50PM (#11930025)
Err, are we not taking things out of historical context?
Re:Y Combinator's Xerox Alto: restoring the legendary 1970s ... by Joeri on Saturday June 18, 2016 @02:14PM (#11929861)
Mass market products are rarely best in class, they are all about offering 'good enough' at commodity prices. Unix won because it was cheap, widely available and got the job done.
Re:Y Combinator's Xerox Alto: restoring the legendary 1970s ... by kens on Saturday June 18, 2016 @02:19PM (#11929884)
The famous article "The rise of 'Worse is Better'" describes the victory of Unix/C over the "right thing" style of design : https://www.dreamsongs.com/RiseOfWorseIsBetter.html

Edit: I've changed the link. Thanks for letting me know about the bad redirect, golergka. The jwz link looked fine to me; it's pretty obnoxious if the site does a NSFW redirect.

Re:Y Combinator's Xerox Alto: restoring the legendary 1970s ... by golergka on Saturday June 18, 2016 @02:37PM (#11929970)
Warning: this link now redirects to a NSFW image about HN being a DDOS.
Re:Y Combinator's Xerox Alto: restoring the legendary 1970s ... by hobs on Saturday June 18, 2016 @02:39PM (#11929976)
No the party didnt forget to check the link or have some joke in mind, jwz's site always does if you have HN as a referrer.
Re:Y Combinator's Xerox Alto: restoring the legendary 1970s ... by digi_owl on Saturday June 18, 2016 @02:43PM (#11929993)
JWZ may know his stuff, but damn he can be a salty asshole...
Re:Y Combinator's Xerox Alto: restoring the legendary 1970s ... by hobs on Saturday June 18, 2016 @02:47PM (#11930009)
I usually like to leave more substantive comments on HN, but I don't think he would be mad if I said "that's kind of his thing."
Re:Y Combinator's Xerox Alto: restoring the legendary 1970s ... by digi_owl on Sunday June 19, 2016 @05:54AM (#11932410)
One thing that puzzles me is how he coined CADT to describe the Gnome development process, while also having embraced OSX as some kind of example of good computing. Because Apple have been just as much about "churn" and dropping of old code for new code, afaik.

Heh, and while writing this it dawns on me that it may well be that he is about OSX because UNIX. Meaning that OSX is a BSD derivative, that in turn is derived from the historical UNIX. While on the other hand Linux is just a bastard clone.

Because it hit me that i have seen some similar fervent anti-Linux sentiment from other UNIX people, related to either the BSDs or Solaris.

Re:Y Combinator's Xerox Alto: restoring the legendary 1970s ... by theoh on Saturday June 18, 2016 @04:54PM (#11930550)
As we all get older, I think it's understandable for some people to be frustrated by waves of what JWZ called (on one occasion) "anklebiters" arriving from HN. DDOS or not.

Wikipedia has an objective and some structure, whereas HN is, for all its uniqueness and value, not an organized activity.

Re:Y Combinator's Xerox Alto: restoring the legendary 1970s ... by spacecop on Sunday June 19, 2016 @03:47AM (#11932193)
What an interesting fellow! I'd like to subscribe to his newsletter.
Re:Y Combinator's Xerox Alto: restoring the legendary 1970s ... by digi_owl on Sunday June 19, 2016 @05:27AM (#11932369)
Well if you didn't misplace the /s you could try his blog. It will be more about DNA lounge and Pizza than about tech though. Not worth linking it here though unless you want more facefulls of hairy eggs...