Facebook is wrong, text is deathless

Re:Facebook is wrong, text is deathless by thaumasiotes on Saturday June 18, 2016 @01:15PM (#11929529)

> Of course, English uses 26 letter to represent 44 or so sounds, so as far as learning to read and write via phonics goes, English is one of the worst examples there is.

What you really want, for learning to read and write via phonics, is determinism -- you want someone to be able to write something if they know how it sounds, and to be able to read something if they see its written form. There's no need to have symbols and phonemes correspond one-to-one, and they generally don't even when people are devising their own orthography in a green field.

For example, using C for a generic consonant, we have the following regular spelling rules in English:

    aC -- TRAP vowel
    aCe -- FACE vowel
    eC -- DRESS vowel
    eCe -- FLEECE vowel
    iC -- KIT vowel
    iCe -- PRICE vowel
    oC -- LOT vowel
    oCe -- GOAT vowel
    uC -- STRUT vowel
    uCe -- GOOSE vowel

Voila, ten sounds in five symbols. The problem from a phonics perspective isn't that we don't have ten different vowel symbols for these, it's that we have other ways of writing the same vowels ("beat" is not written "bete") and other ways of reading words that appear to conform to these rules ("debris" does not rhyme with "priss", or even with "his").

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Re:Facebook is wrong, text is deathless by Natanael_L on Saturday June 18, 2016 @02:16PM (#11929869)

So basically everybody should model their language after Finnish. I can supposedly pronounce almost any Finnish word or sentence near perfectly, and I don't understand a word of the language.

The rules for pronunciation is very directly linked to the spelling, with few exceptions.

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Re:Facebook is wrong, text is deathless by thaumasiotes on Saturday June 18, 2016 @02:50PM (#11930027)

> So basically everybody should model their language after Finnish.

Sure, as long as you assume the only goal is to validate a phonics approach to teaching reading. Some people appreciate that english words get the same spelling in Minnesota as they do in Mississippi.

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Re:Facebook is wrong, text is deathless by Gravityloss on Sunday June 19, 2016 @07:17AM (#11932588)

English pronunciation <-> writing is so far from a mapping, it causes a lot of resource waste.

For foreigners like me that mostly use it in text, the biggest overhead is in speaking, for example I always mess up the words study and student, it's infuriating.

Even if there are dialects that pronounce the same word differently, you could still find a lot of common ground.

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Re:Facebook is wrong, text is deathless by thaumasiotes on Sunday June 19, 2016 @07:47AM (#11932646)

Finding that common ground would mean switching from our current system of somewhat-arbitrary spelling to a different but very similar system of mostly-arbitrary spelling. It imposes the same memorization burden on everyone and the benefit is slightly more predictable pronunciation within each of a set of officially-blessed dialects. That ground gets lost over time regardless; there is a reason predictable pronunciation is a feature of spelling systems that either (1) are new, or (2) have just undergone reform.

If your biggest problem lies in a circumstance you rarely encounter, arguably fixing it is not a priority.

> for example I always mess up the words study and student, it's infuriating

This is a funny example to use, since it fully conforms to the rules I described above -- study uses the STRUT vowel, and student uses the GOOSE vowel. It would be a better example for the complaint that we have more sounds than symbols.

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Re:Facebook is wrong, text is deathless by Gravityloss on Sunday June 19, 2016 @04:45PM (#11934595)

Good points, but I disagree. Decoding and encoding becomes a lot harder, if vowels change depending on consonants coming after them, or something else even further down the line. (I'm not a linguist.)

It's like a config file specification that supports gotos.

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Re:Facebook is wrong, text is deathless by kwhitefoot on Sunday June 19, 2016 @12:23PM (#11933475)

So there are no dialects in Finnish? I remember my Norwegian teacher telling me the same ludicrous thing 30 years ago when I moved to Norway.

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Re:Facebook is wrong, text is deathless by Gravityloss on Sunday June 19, 2016 @04:27PM (#11934522)

There are, like in most other places. What's usually written is the so called "general language". You can also speak that in a formal setting.

It's like in English, if you say "y'all" and write "ladies and gentlemen", you understand that those might mean roughly the same thing but are different words. It's not a spelling issue.

This is an important but hard to articulate distinction. Ask more if it's unclear...

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