@ZenPsycho: A standard library doesn't always have to mean file io or sockets etc. It could be better String/Array/Object manipulation apis, better utility functions (kinda like what underscore/loadsh provide) etc
These are universal helpers that are very much needed whether you're writing code that runs in browser/server/mobile/iot etc.
> If file I/O had been standardised years ago, with API designed by server programmers the browser would be saddled with lousy synchronous stuff that hangs the browser UI
Maybe a bad example, but wouldn't sync file io be a problem in server as well?
You are wrong. It's absolutely fine to downvote on disagreement. See the following comment from pg himself:
When you come to a new site, it's usually considered civil to learn the rules of that site, although of course I cannot force you to do so. For example, assuming that reddit rules apply on HN is kinda silly. Relatedly, you might be interested to note that there are dozens of HN old-timers that will automatically downvote (nearly) any comment that contains a "downvote me if you want" or a "don't just downvote me if you disagree" or "these downvotes are BS" or something.
You're right, though, that not all users agree. And hopefully you learn from this comment that it's okay, on HN, to downvote me if you disagree, even if you think I contributed to the conversation.
PS: welcome to HN.
What does ownership have to do with it?
That does not make him more right than any other human being.
Ownership means one can impose ones will, it does not mean you are omniscient.
No, just the only relevant person to say what is welcome and allowed in HIS social bookmarking forum and what's not.
>Ownership means one can impose ones will, it does not mean you are omniscient.
"House rules" are not meant to be perfect or agreeable to all -- they are just meant to be whatever those running and owing the house decide.
What does ownership have to do with it, you fucking moron?
That does not make him more right than any other human being. Ownership means one can impose ones will, it does not mean you are omniscient.
I'd say "you fucking moron" besides rude, is grounds for killing your account.
As to the question, rules on any property, including a website, are usually imposed by the owner.
That's what "ownership" has to do with it.
There are moderators, and comment and submission rules in places. Maybe you conflated HN with some kind of self-governing collective?
>That does not make him more right than any other human being. Ownership means one can impose ones will, it does not mean you are omniscient.
You wrote that again and I already answered. Nobody cares about PG being omniscient. He can impose ANY arbitrary will (right or wrong), because it's his site. He can even close it if he gets bored with it. Whether you or I find any particular rule "right" is inconsequential, as we're guests here, not even customers.
Besides, votes are used for agreement more than for any other purpose, and given that there's no way to force people to not do this, let's just dispense with the fiction that they can ever mean anything else. "Please no downvote" is just noise.
This is our website. Maybe pg 'made' it, but we use it. If most of us disagree that is what will (and should in my opinion) happen.
He can always close down the side.
Besides, it's not about "what is he going to do" -- it's about what people coming here should respect.
Therefore, what matters most in practice is the mass opinion of users of the site - what do we think is most useful and respectful in daily usage (following Paul Graham's lead to be respectful because we can all agree that this is a good idea).
I couldn't disagree more. JavaScript started out that way but today (really the past 6+ years) it's used in identical use cases as Python in addition to being embedded into web browsers.
> If you start trying to include things like file i/o in the base language, you're never going to satisfy all the very different requirements of code running in a browser vs. running on a server.
You don't need to. Provide the basic capabilities that all languages provide, restrict what isn't possible when it's embedded into an environment. Keep it simple.
> If file I/O had been standardised years ago, with API designed by server programmers the browser would be saddled with lousy synchronous stuff that hangs the browser UI, opens up a thousand security issues, and bloats the language with stuff that's pointless for purposes that aren't web browsers or servers.
This is very unfair. What's "years ago"? The asynchronous patterns used in JavaScript date back to well over a decade ago and JavaScript wasn't really used elsewhere until node.js. I'm not sure I would consider any standard APIs as "bloat" either. This just looks like a baseless attack.
> Finally the biggest and best reason to not do this is that, once you put something in javascript (or a web browser for that matter), you can never ever take it out no matter how badly designed it is, without breaking something.
Same goes for all programming languages and their standard libraries. This is why you target specific versions. This is a solved problem.
> Javascript and the web is an open platform. not a closed platform.
So is Python. C++. C#. etc.
Well, that makes sense but wouldn't it make more sense that the environments supply what's meaningful on top of a very light base? Like window.document.querySelectorAll in browser and require("fs") in node.js?
I, although, also think that stuff like what underscore/lodash provides could very well be in that light base, before we start discussing a standard for observables.
I certainly don't think so. JavaScript is a language that works in more places now; commonized libraries would be a huge benefit. As an example you wouldn't use Python with different io libraries depending on the operating system it's running on and yet this is what node is evolving into.
> Like window.document.querySelectorAll in browser and require("fs") in node.js?
querySelector / querySelectorAll are specific to a browser platform but a way to conduct io could be pretty universal, in my opinion.
C++'s STL is part of its specification. Python has a library reference outlining the interfaces their standard libraries must include.
You're still thinking in browser world. In a browser world a browser is a platform and has to provide APIs to allow JavaScript to interact with its elements. Today this isn't always true. Today you have node.js and several other execution engines that allow JavaScript to run anywhere much like other languages. It's time the standard reflects that new reality, in my opinion.
If you start trying to include things like file i/o in the base language, you're never going to satisfy all the very different requirements of code running in a browser vs. running on a server. If file I/O had been standardised years ago, with API designed by server programmers the browser would be saddled with lousy synchronous stuff that hangs the browser UI, opens up a thousand security issues, and bloats the language with stuff that's pointless for purposes that aren't web browsers or servers.
If you think the web platform lacks something what you do is take it up with the W3C or WhatWG who are in charge of deciding what APIs the application exposes. if you want node to match the browser or vice versa, write a library.
Finally the biggest and best reason to not do this is that, once you put something in javascript (or a web browser for that matter), you can never ever take it out no matter how badly designed it is, without breaking something. At least with an external library abstraction you can switch to a better designed library.
Javascript and the web is an open platform. not a closed platform. The web browser itself provides a MASSIVE standard library that includes everything from a UI and text layout engine, to a standard graphics drawing library, a standard file io library, and plenty of other stuff you'd have to build from scratch in python or ruby. Don't undersell that.