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Re:Killing the 3.5mm Jack: How Simple Is Changing into Needl... by voodootrucker on Monday June 13, 2016 @10:56AM (#11894343)
They don't listen to their customers because there is tremendous financial pressure to close "the analog hole".

Once data has to be transmitted wirelessly, there is a much better chance that you will do it in ways that can't be pirated, but can be controlled, monitored, and profited from.

Re:Killing the 3.5mm Jack: How Simple Is Changing into Needl... by cm2187 on Monday June 13, 2016 @11:16AM (#11894532)
It's hard to find DRM-ed music these days. Both iTunes and Amazon will sell you DRM-free music. Not convinced this is a driver of the design.
Re:Killing the 3.5mm Jack: How Simple Is Changing into Needl... by ptx on Monday June 13, 2016 @01:07PM (#11895442)
The continued availability of DRM-free music (just as we had before they first tried to introduce DRM) might be viewed as a temporary setback – I don't think they gave up their DRM push because they were suddenly convinced by the philosophical arguments, but rather because there was too much market resistance.

Once all the necessary pieces are in place to decisively force it on the consumer, why wouldn't they try again?

Re:Killing the 3.5mm Jack: How Simple Is Changing into Needl... by voodootrucker on Monday June 13, 2016 @06:19PM (#11898205)
I wasn't talking as narrowly as the RIAA. I meant even USB ports are disappearing in favor of wireless charging and bluetooth.

If there's a USB port, most people will just plug in and back up to their computer. But if they do it over wireless, they'd just rather use Google / Apple's services, which means they get your data.

Re:Killing the 3.5mm Jack: How Simple Is Changing into Needl... by mschuster91 on Monday June 13, 2016 @11:57AM (#11894901)
It's not about music. It's about movies, or why else should anyone be interested in a 4K phone screen?

And with movies, there's the ridiculous HDCP crap... and I highly believe that the MAFIAA would give manufacturers with a fully protected AV path cheaper licensing.

Re:Killing the 3.5mm Jack: How Simple Is Changing into Needl... by cm2187 on Monday June 13, 2016 @12:06PM (#11894972)
All you would be able to steal is the soundtrack then.
Re:Killing the 3.5mm Jack: How Simple Is Changing into Needl... by mschuster91 on Monday June 13, 2016 @01:02PM (#11895408)
From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-bandwidth_Digital_Content...

> it must not transmit high definition protected video to non-HDCP receivers; and DVD-Audio material can be played only at CD-audio quality[7] by non-HDCP digital audio outputs (analog audio outputs have no quality limits)

Analog hole is still analog hole, and the MAFIAA wants to close it.

Re:Killing the 3.5mm Jack: How Simple Is Changing into Needl... by joesmo on Monday June 13, 2016 @01:23PM (#11895548)
If you can play CD quality audio, it's hardly a hole. Better quality is only useful during creation/mixing. It's not like DVD audio is better, even if it has a higher sampling rate (probably worse then actually) or higher bit encoding.
Re:Killing the 3.5mm Jack: How Simple Is Changing into Needl... by mschuster91 on Monday June 13, 2016 @04:43PM (#11897446)
There are other problems why the analog hole is hard to exploit:

1) Multi-channel streams are easy to grab in digital, but expensive to grab in analog - simple reason: six channels that have to be captured in exactly the same time, without offset. Most consumer-grade sound cards only carry one line-in, not three of them.

2) Power supplies in computing tend to be NOISY. I mean, REALLY noisy. So basically the PSU adds noise to the output DAC, and then the PSU adds noise at the ADC stage. It most definitely is a quality loss.

3) Naturally, headphone-outs and in a lot of cases line-outs tend to be engineered in a way that their output impedance can drive headphones, too. This can massively distort the signal.

4) Clipping. Hard enough to avoid when using a professional mixing table, next to impossible to avoid when ripping audio via the analog hole.

Re:Killing the 3.5mm Jack: How Simple Is Changing into Needl... by gwbas1c on Monday June 13, 2016 @03:21PM (#11896592)
Humans can hear up to 28khz when paying close attention. "CD Quality" is slightly below the threshold of hearing, at a point where most people don't notice the difference or care to notice the difference.

It's also somewhat poorly-defined, because "CD quality" can mean lousy mid-range performance when rounding 24-bit to 16-bit, or high frequency hiss when noise-shaping 24-bit to 16-bit.

So "CD quality audio" is quite a degradation when you listen in a 100% quiet room with expensive speakers and your full attention.

Re:Killing the 3.5mm Jack: How Simple Is Changing into Needl... by crististm on Monday June 13, 2016 @04:44PM (#11897454)
28kHz is either a typo or you give too much credit to human ears. 18kHz is more likely the real figure.
Re:Killing the 3.5mm Jack: How Simple Is Changing into Needl... by mschuster91 on Monday June 13, 2016 @04:49PM (#11897492)
That depends on the ears, that's why the ultrasonic youth drive-aways are so successful. Old people simply can't hear them due to age and external degradation (loud rock music concerts).

I, for example, can hear these ultrasonic weasel defenders, which operate between 20 and 30 kHz, again - when I used to work on outside construction works using massive jackhammers, excavators etc. I couldn't because daily stress would fuck up my ears.

Re:Killing the 3.5mm Jack: How Simple Is Changing into Needl... by crististm on Monday June 13, 2016 @05:00PM (#11897590)
I have my doubts that humans can hear above 20kHz.

It's more likely that the sound produced by those devices, even if ultrasonic, may produce intermodulations in the audible range.

Re:Killing the 3.5mm Jack: How Simple Is Changing into Needl... by mschuster91 on Monday June 13, 2016 @05:19PM (#11897742)
28 kHz is in fact correct, although only in lab conditions:

> The commonly stated range of human hearing is 20 Hz to 20 kHz. Under ideal laboratory conditions, humans can hear sound as low as 12 Hz and as high as 28 kHz, though the threshold increases sharply at 15 kHz in adults, corresponding to the last auditory channel of the cochlea.

(ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearing_range)

Re:Killing the 3.5mm Jack: How Simple Is Changing into Needl... by brian-armstrong on Monday June 13, 2016 @05:42PM (#11897945)
Even 18kHz is too high. Adolescents can only sometimes hear as high as 17kHz, and adults can often only hear as high as 14kHz.
Re:Killing the 3.5mm Jack: How Simple Is Changing into Needl... by dloose on Monday June 13, 2016 @11:05AM (#11894423)
Is the "analog hole" still an issue for music, now that all-you-can-eat streaming services have become the norm? Is anyone using their 3.5mm jack to capture a Spotify stream?
Re:Killing the 3.5mm Jack: How Simple Is Changing into Needl... by teh_klev on Monday June 13, 2016 @12:06PM (#11894973)
Every day I plug my phone (or tablet) into my kitchen DAB radio's auxiliary socket to listen to stuff I play on these devices whilst cooking, sitting round the table chatting with friends or just staring out the window watching the birds in my garden. I guess for me it's less about "capturing" streams but that every audio/amp device in my house, that's attached to speakers, has a line-in cable with 3.5mm jack on the end.

Not having an analogue hole would be a right royal pain in the arse.

[edited to fix my english]

Re:Killing the 3.5mm Jack: How Simple Is Changing into Needl... by imgabe on Monday June 13, 2016 @12:50PM (#11895333)
I download songs to Spotify with premium and use the 3.5mm jack to plug it into the aux jack in my car.

I guess a lot of newer cars have bluetooth pairing, but mine doesn't.

Re:Killing the 3.5mm Jack: How Simple Is Changing into Needl... by swiley on Monday June 13, 2016 @08:29PM (#11898915)
I have a car that does. My last phone would play audio on it for about 30 seconds and then immediately disconnect. On a previous version of the firmware it would reliably panic and reboot after ~20 minutes of playing music. It worked fine with other speakers but there was something"magical" going on between it and the car.
Re:Killing the 3.5mm Jack: How Simple Is Changing into Needl... by joe_the_user on Monday June 13, 2016 @02:17PM (#11895981)
While streaming music currently gives lots of music for cheap, it is doing because it is competing with piracy. And efforts to control piracy are a bit hampered because of the potential to use the "analog hole" (if you could only get a given song with analog recording of Spotify, then people would do it).

Further, a lot of the anti-piracy impulse is not simply a desire to charge get more money from everyone but a desire for control. Essentially, the music industry is reconciled to most people paying little for their music (or better yet, most people forced to hear advertising mixed with their music) but the industry want to have the ability to sell to people at a variety of levels. Perhaps charge more for just released music or certain artists or music connected to movie sound-tracks or for "audiophile level" audio or whatever.

For a commodity that's infinitely reproducible, the ideal position is being able to separately charge each consumer exactly what they're willing to pay. Maximum utility for the owner, which would imply minimum utility for the buyer.

Re:Killing the 3.5mm Jack: How Simple Is Changing into Needl... by 13years on Monday June 13, 2016 @12:19PM (#11895072)
Possibly, considering that the industry historically lagged significantly behind current reality when it comes to business practices and mindset.
Re:Killing the 3.5mm Jack: How Simple Is Changing into Needl... by sosuke on Monday June 13, 2016 @11:04AM (#11894415)
I know you're right but at the same time I can't remember the last time I had to use the analog hole to save some kind of media.
Re:Killing the 3.5mm Jack: How Simple Is Changing into Needl... by djsumdog on Monday June 13, 2016 @01:25PM (#11895559)
I doubt they'll be HDCP over USB-C. There are much easier ways to rip DRM music anyway (and most of the stuff people play today isn't under DRM unless you rent your music from Spotify).