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Re:No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority (1870) by mwfunk on Sunday June 12, 2016 @08:10PM (#11890981)
You effectively consent to being governed by continuing to live within the national boundaries associated with the government associated with that nation. I'm not expressing a judgement on whether or not that's the best arrangement, but that is exactly how it works today.

What's the alternative, and how would you implement it? What would the upsides to your plan be exactly? What would be the downsides (including negative unintended consequences), and how would you address them? Would the upsides outweigh the downsides? If not, you've answered your own question. But if so, PLEASE tell humanity about it because we've been trying to figure this stuff out for millennia!

Re:No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority (1870) by SwellJoe on Sunday June 12, 2016 @08:41PM (#11891060)
There's a wide variety of anarchist literature to choose from. I'm not the best person to ask, though I definitely lean anarchist.

Noam Chomsky is among the most famous anarchists that is currently writing on the subject, so his writing is likely a good introduction. David Graeber is another. Both of those folks are coming at it from the left; others come to anarchism or minarchism from the right, which is sometimes called libertarian (with some caveats, as the word "libertarian" has been overloaded to the point of being almost meaningless; I know people who call themselves "libertarian" that support Trump's border wall, or gods' sake!) or voluntarist. Though, left/right, in general, gets a little sketchy as a way to describe a political belief system as the power of the state envisioned gets smaller and more directly accountable to citizens.

Re:No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority (1870) by cbd1984 on Sunday June 12, 2016 @09:16PM (#11891177)
> the power of the state envisioned gets smaller and more directly accountable to citizens.

Pure majoritarianism doesn't work, you know. It leads to grossly immoral systems which destroy the rights of minorities. There needs to be larger governments, governments not ruled by the local majority, which can step in to curb the abuses an unchecked majoritarian government would otherwise get away with.

Re:No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority (1870) by AnthonyMouse on Monday June 13, 2016 @12:04AM (#11891663)
> There needs to be larger governments, governments not ruled by the local majority, which can step in to curb the abuses an unchecked majoritarian government would otherwise get away with.

Changing the size of government doesn't fix any problem created by majoritarianism. A larger government only makes it so that when the majority gets it wrong, they get it wrong everywhere at once and there is nowhere left to run.

Re:No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority (1870) by cbd1984 on Monday June 13, 2016 @01:20AM (#11891852)
A larger government is less likely to be ruled by the prejudices endemic to a single region.
Re:No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority (1870) by AnthonyMouse on Monday June 13, 2016 @11:09AM (#11894459)
Bullocks. Almost nothing is region-exclusive. What you'll see instead is that 80% of the South and 35% of the North supported slavery, which when you average them together you get the wrong answer. Then the federal government passes the Fugitive Slave Act instead of letting every slave in Virginia escape to Boston, which would have destroyed the institution faster and with a lot less blood than Lincoln providing the catalyst for secession and war with a blatantly undemocratic abuse of executive power.

That's how it goes. You can't expect the US Congress to do the right thing. They pass the Fugitive Slave Act, the Defense of Marriage Act (signed by B. Clinton), laws against abortion, laws favoring banks and coal companies at the expense of the poor and workers, etc. Read Roe v. Wade. The court wanted to do something that Congress wouldn't but they had no justification for doing it, so they made one up. It's utterly contrived. Striking down DOMA was only slightly less contrived (and 5-4 instead of 7-2), and only because modern courts are getting so much better at contriving things due to all the practice.

But the same Court gave us Dred Scott and Buck v. Bell and Bush v. Gore. The same Office of the President gave us Hoover and Nixon and Bush Jr.

Gay couples are only happy today because Justice Kennedy is the swing vote, but Kennedy was appointed by Reagan. If Reagan appointed somebody else then DOMA is upheld and any state can ban same sex marriage. So we have a federal government that will pass DOMA with a large bipartisan super-majority but strike it down by the narrowest of margins, when we could have one that much more clearly has no authority to be involved in the matter at all.

Re:No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority (1870) by cbd1984 on Wednesday June 15, 2016 @02:22AM (#11907483)
The Civil Rights Era wouldn't exist but for an active Federal Government overruling state and local governments. Same with Obergefell and similar pro-GLBTQ laws and rulings.

Countries need a strong central government to overrule local governments ruled by prejudice. To think otherwise is historically illiterate.

Re:No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority (1870) by SwellJoe on Sunday June 12, 2016 @09:29PM (#11891222)
It's wonderful how many straw men reside in discussions of anarchism. I have, nowhere, suggested "majoritarianism" (that was a bear to spell on my phone, which wanted to correct it to "authoritarianism").
Re:No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority (1870) by cbd1984 on Sunday June 12, 2016 @11:00PM (#11891477)
Except without a higher authority to prevent it, majoritarianism is exactly what ends up happening. It isn't a strawman if it's inevitable.
Re:No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority (1870) by programmarchy on Monday June 13, 2016 @03:05AM (#11892130)
To you have any evidence to back up that claim, or just a blind assertion?

From Majoritarianism [1], quoting anarchist anthropologist David Graeber:

> "Majority democracy, we might say, can only emerge when two factors coincide: 1. a feeling that people should have equal say in making group decisions, and 2. a coercive apparatus capable of enforcing those decisions." Graeber argues that those two factors almost never meet: "Where egalitarian societies exist, it is also usually considered wrong to impose systematic coercion. Where a machinery of coercion did exist, it did not even occur to those wielding it that they were enforcing any sort of popular will."

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majoritarianism

Re:No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority (1870) by dpatru on Sunday June 12, 2016 @10:31PM (#11891394)
> What's the alternative, and how would you implement it?

I can think of two basic reasons for the existence of government: 1) The idealistic (naive?) view of government is that it exists because some problems in society are best solved by coercion rather than cooperation. Businesses and charities, when they solve problems, lessen the need for government.

2) Bastiat's more cynical view of government was that it "is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." Moral instruction and wealth, evenly distributed, would seem to lessen the need for this type of government.

Re:No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority (1870) by programmarchy on Monday June 13, 2016 @02:33AM (#11892040)
Your first sentence is similar to saying that if the Mafia moves into your neighborhood and starts demanding protection money, then you consent to their abuses because you continue to live in your home. That's intimidation, not consent.

There are plenty of alternatives to living under a monopoly of violence (a state). Anarchy means "no ruler". Thus, by definition it doesn't tell people how to live. There is no central "plan", dictated from on high, though that doesn't mean there are no rules. The premise is that individuals should be permitted to organize themselves, to experiment and make room for diverse forms of society. Another term for this is polycentric law.

How to implement? A great start would be to make taxation voluntary by cutting them from the top down. Allow people to not pay for the War on Drugs, the War on Terror, government compulsory education, corporate welfare, or the numerous other unethical, irrational failed policies forced upon the population. The state is not needed for society to function -- in fact, I'd argue it's a parasitic hindrance that's convinced its host of its legitimacy and necessity.

Since anarchist philosophy can't exactly be boiled down into a single HN comment, I'd suggest reading Kevin Carson, David Graeber, Stefan Molyneaux, Noam Chomsky, Proudhon, Bakunin, and other well known anarchists if you're serious about learning more.

Re:No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority (1870) by jrcii on Sunday June 12, 2016 @08:41PM (#11891061)
>You effectively consent to being governed by continuing to live within the national boundaries associated with the government associated with that nation

To play devil's advocate on this particular point, it could be argued that the place of your birth is by definition your home to which you're entitled a natural right.

Re:No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority (1870) by ubernostrum on Sunday June 12, 2016 @10:14PM (#11891364)
And this is where I step in and point out that the idea of "natural rights" existing prior to constituted/codified societies cannot be supported by rational argument. The entire concept dates back to 17th- and 18th-century "state of nature" thought experiments that can be demolished by a moment's reflection.

The underlying assumption of "natural rights" is, after all, that if some humans were somehow born and grew up in a context where no society -- and especially no modern Western society -- was inculcating them from birth with its code of ethics or enforcing it on them, those humans would somehow spontaneously derive the core values of the modern Western code of ethics from self-evident first principles and then automatically enforce that code on themselves without any external incentive to do so.

And that is pure fantasy, and is the point in these HN threads where I often start quoting Thomas Hobbes.

Re:No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority (1870) by sverige on Monday June 13, 2016 @12:41AM (#11891760)
Actually, "natural rights" or at least "rights of citizens" is an ancient idea that goes back at least as far as Ancient Greece and further developed in Republican Rome. It was revived greatly with the writings of Machiavelli (who, when you read not only The Prince or The Art of War, but also his Discourses on Livy, was arguably the most ardent republican of the Renaissance). These ideas were picked up by Locke and others and greatly influenced the thinking of the Founding Fathers (please don't downvote me just for calling them that; I'm old).

The U.S. Constitution was the culmination of centuries of thinking about political power and is remarkable for its distrust of absolute power. Unfortunately, that distrust has been slowly eroded over the last nearly two-and-a-half centuries, beginning with Marbury v. Madison and currently at such a state that presidents enter into war without an act of Congress, judges make law from the bench, and Congress dictates to the executive which cabinet positions must be filled.

It was a great experiment, but actually already a failed one in the sense of the original debate back in the 1770s and '80s.

Re:No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority (1870) by ubernostrum on Monday June 13, 2016 @01:05AM (#11891823)
beginning with Marbury v. Madison

Ah yes. Tell me again how all the people involved in drafting the Constitution came to universal perfect agreement in every aspect and detail of what the right way to set up a government was and how the resulting Constitution should be read and interpreted for 100% of situations, to such a high degree that during their lifetimes there were absolutely no controversies about how the Constitution worked.

Hint: the fact that Marbury happened shows what a complete clusterfuck of disagreement and disarray the Constitutional Convention was. Also, Marbury was good law.

And yes, there are older concepts of natural rights, but the one always espoused by people who advocate for the perfect-unanimous-agreement myth of the Constitution is the one used by, well, the people who drafted the Constitution, who'd been busy reading the theories of John Locke on the subject.

Re:No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority (1870) by cbd1984 on Monday June 13, 2016 @01:22AM (#11891860)
To expand on your point:

Hobbes was wrong on one count: Human life in a state of nature isn't nasty, brutish, short, or any of the other War Of All Against All nonsense he proposed unless there's been a serious disaster in the recent history, such as a plague or famine or invasion. In short, humans don't live like Mad Max or Walking Dead or Night Of The Living Dead unless their actual society was just destroyed and they haven't built a new one yet.

In a state of nature, humans live as hunter-gatherers, usually, which is not terribly bad most of the time. However, hunter-gatherer societies still have rules and ways to enforce those rules and hierarchies which are not fair by modern standards of fairness. Strict gender roles are usually enforced, for example.

My point is, humans naturally have a government of some kind, and definitely have rules which you can't opt out of if you expect to keep living with that group of humans. And it is entirely correct that humans raised in that society won't spontaneously recapitulate Locke and Jefferson. But they will have something, and they won't look kindly on people who expect to live outside of their rules and continue to interact with them.

And they certainly won't agree on which "rights" humans "naturally" have. Not even the right to live: A number of ancient societies practiced infanticide, for example.

Re:No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority (1870) by dragonwriter on Monday June 13, 2016 @01:54AM (#11891934)
You say Hobbes is wrong, but you then acknowledge he was right: the state of nature only exists before they've rebuilt an ordered society. The state of nature Hobbes refers to isn't supposed to be the actual natural state of humanity in society, rather, it is the hypothetical state of humanity in the absence of ordered society.
Re:No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority (1870) by floydnoel on Monday June 13, 2016 @09:09AM (#11893474)
>>> You effectively consent to being governed by continuing to live within the national boundaries associated with the government associated with that nation.

>>> What's the alternative, and how would you implement it?

Great question. Some here have already mentioned anarchism, which would be great if we could get there- but how could that even happen in the current regime? Most people are not philosophers, and have a hard time imagining things which don't exist here on our little ball of dirt. There is, however, a simple solution which should please anarchists and statists alike: virtual citizenship.

Virtual citizenships are the future. As you said yourself, in the current system one must change geographical location to change states, but why should this be so? We are already seeing the beginnings of this with things like Bulgaria's e-citizenship. Don't like the local religious-influenced government? Switch to another. Governments can work out treaties between themselves to establish a baseline of necessities and cost sharing. Changing your government could be simple and easy, which would force governments to compete for citizens. I think most of us realize the benefits of competition vs monopoly.

It could become the case that competition between governments becomes so fierce that governments start offering large incentives to join them- such as bonuses or minimum income guarantees.

Anyway, that would be my modest proposal for the way forward. This post is the result of thoughtful reflection and is not intended to be trolling in any way. I would appreciate criticisms and responses to my argument. Thank you for reading.