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Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by distances on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @11:01AM (#11862670)
"Loser pays" would go a long way, I think. Not being that familiar with the US system, what's the reasoning not to have this?
Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by saint_fiasco on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @11:09AM (#11862725)
If loser pays, poor people would be discouraged from even attempting to sue rich people.

Even if the poor person has a legitimate claim, there is a small probability that the rich person will win with their superior lawyers and the poor person will be bankrupted by the legal fees. Since they will know that from the beginning, they won't sue in the first place.

Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by jules on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @11:32AM (#11862896)
This comes up every single time, but it remains false. Loser pays does not mean that the loser has to pay a gigantic amount for the opponent's extremely expensive lawyers. Loser pays means that the judge determines what is a reasonable amount for the legal fees. Often the amount you have to pay for your opponent's lawyers is limited to what you paid for your own. So unless you hire extremely expensive lawyers yourself, you won't have to pay a huge amount if you lose. If a party wants a much more expensive defence they have to pay for that extra cost regardless of whether they win.

Almost every country except the United States uses this system.

Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by distances on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @12:14PM (#11863278)
Indeed. I'm living in a "loser pays" country, and it's definitely not a limitless tap. Judges quite often settle the loser's extra costs down to a more reasonable number.
Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by talmand on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @01:07PM (#11863759)
Curious, what if the reasonable number is more than the lower could possibly pay? As in, they simply do not have the resources to pay it?
Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by distances on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @01:45PM (#11864051)
I'd say it's just a debt as any other then.

Not directly related, but personal bankruptcies aren't a thing here. If a debt can't be paid, it goes to recovery proceedings, and will stay like that until it expires in (generally) 15-25 years.

Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by jsprogrammer on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @01:46PM (#11864060)
In some US jurisdictions you will eventually be sent to jail for failure to pay court fees.
Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by tzs on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @02:05PM (#11864206)
> Almost every country except the United States uses this system.

Almost every country except the US uses agencies of their executive branch of government to enforce most labor, housing, discrimination, harassment, and civil rights laws. In the United States the enforcement of such laws is often split, with only very serious violations being handled by an executive agency and the more common violations simply creating a cause of action for a civil suit.

Even if the amount a loser has to pay is limited to what they themselves paid for their own attorneys it would still greatly discourage many people from bringing suits over labor, housing, discrimination, harassment, and civil rights against anyone who has significantly more resources than they do. If they spend a lot to get a top attorney and lose then they have to pay a lot. If they spend little on an attorney to limit the maximum they might have to pay then they have to worry that the other side will out lawyer them.

Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by jules on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @03:14PM (#11864795)
The problem of being out-lawyered by a richer opponent exists in both cases, so I don't see how that's an argument for or against either system.

The point about potentially discouraging lawsuits has a grain of truth in it, but not more than a grain. In the US you'd have to pay $X regardless of whether you win, and with the loser pays system you pay $0 if you win and $2X if you lose. It is at most a factor of two. The reality is that most people who can't afford $2X also can't afford $X. Consider what you get in return: (1) if you're quite sure you can win, you can sue at no cost (2) big companies can't just bully people into a settlement (like they attempted in this story). The net effect is that poor people who are clearly in the right gain the ability to sue, and rich entities who are clearly in the wrong lose the ability to extort settlements from poor people, but poor people who can afford $X but can't afford $2X lose the ability to sue if they aren't sure they can win. A very good trade-off if you ask me.

Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by tptacek on Thursday June 09, 2016 @08:26AM (#11868885)
His first paragraph explains why the public policy implications of loser-pays are different for civil law countries: far fewer controversies are handled in the court system, because the executive branch is given much more power.
Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by golergka on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @12:21PM (#11863350)
> judge determines what is a reasonable amount for the legal fees

That just gives financial unsupervised power to the judge, without any clear definition of involved terms. Which doesn't really sound like a good idea.

Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by distances on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @12:31PM (#11863456)
Somehow it seems to work quite fine. I can't say if judges here have some approximate documentation for acceptable hourly costs and work loads, or if it's decided case by case.
Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by masklinn on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @12:34PM (#11863476)
The US has elected judges, who have to campaign, and raise campaign money. The chances are non-nil that the "rich person" has, could or will contribute to the judge's campaign funds.
Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by Silhouette on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @12:30PM (#11863440)
In practice, this is no different to having judges determine the amount of any damages awarded in a successful civil action or the amount of jail time or size of fine given to a convicted criminal. Making such assessments, taking into account the circumstances of each specific case, is a large part of the role of the judge in many legal systems.
Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by protomyth on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @12:41PM (#11863528)
Amount of jail time doesn't really benefit donors, but amount of damages and who pays does.
Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by Silhouette on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @12:47PM (#11863580)
Sorry, I don't follow. Does "donors" have some technical meaning here?
Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by protomyth on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @12:50PM (#11863605)
Judges in the US run for office like politicians and thus have donors to their campaigns. Sorry for the confusion.
Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by Silhouette on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @01:39PM (#11864010)
Ah, I see. Thanks.

What I don't see is how anyone who is inherently subject to popular opinion can possibly rule impartially in the interests of justice, but that's a different question.

Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by protomyth on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @02:45PM (#11864554)
I guess people feel the ability to vote out a judge balances versus the problems. It also probably keeps some flaky political appointees from becoming judges.
Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by kefka on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @11:17AM (#11862795)
It could be done that it is not loser pays by default. Instead, if a case is won, and the case was deemed frivolous, only then could loser-pays be enacted.

But it still doesn't solve the idea that the "Law is more equal the more money you have." .

Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by brianwawok on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @11:22AM (#11862829)
This is essentially how it works today, from my understanding.

If you lose and your suit was 100% without merrit, you can be sued for lawyer fees.

From what I understand, the problem is the bar for meritless is very very very high. Not sure how you legislate that. I think most lawsuits are meritless. A lawyer may have a very different opinion.

Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by igravious on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @11:37AM (#11862934)
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

A lawyer's salary depends on him not having the opinion that most lawsuits are meritless.

Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by merpnderp on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @11:14AM (#11862770)
This only favors rich people when the case is questionable. So it slightly favors them. The current situation massively favors rich people.
Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by cortesoft on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @02:18PM (#11864317)
How would a poor person be able to sue now? They don't have the money to hire a good lawyer. If the lawyer is working on contingency, then they are only going to take cases they are pretty sure they are going to win anyway, so they will still take cases where 'loser pays'. Granted, a contingency lawyer is probably going to need a higher guarantee of victory in a 'loser pays' system in order to agree to the case, but I don't think that would be a HUGE factor.
Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by codeflo on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @11:42AM (#11862974)
A small probability of a high (but known) fee is something that can in principle be insured against, no?
Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by marcosdumay on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @12:56PM (#11863671)
And then insurance companies will become the toll collecting gate-keepers of yet another domain. This time the entire judicial system.
Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by c3534l on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @11:11AM (#11862752)
You have that in some cases. My parents just went through that. A complete nonsense legal case (the other person stole tens of thousands of dollars in property and then sued them for demanding it back and spreading lies that the property was stolen from them). In the end, the judge ruled my parents were absolutely in the right and demanded court costs be paid for. Except, you know, that person didn't have any money and a nasty, multi-year long lawsuit is emotionally and financially devastating. There are also "anti-slap" laws sometimes where you can demand court costs paid for if the other person was suing you to try to suppress your freedom of speech. I'm sure that something could be done legally to curtail this atrocious behavior, but as the guy in the video mentioned, congress seems unwilling to take up the subject.
Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by mikeash on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @11:41AM (#11862967)
Loser pays means that when an ridiculous East Texas judge and jury decide that a patent troll's claim is justified, the victim will not only have to pay damages and their lawyers, but the troll's lawyers too.
Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by distances on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @12:20PM (#11863339)
To be fair, I think this mistake in the US judicial system should be fixed separately.
Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by mikeash on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @12:33PM (#11863472)
The overall point is that there will always be injustice, and loser pays can easily magnify it rather than reducing it. Even if you fix East Texas, there will be many others. I'm sure you can construct it such that there's a net gain, and maybe even a simple "loser always pays" system qualifies, but it's tough to figure out.

In theory, I like the idea that the winner's legal fees are just another item in play when the judge decides how to award damages. Maybe it's just a matter of calibrating that judicial sense properly. Or maybe that's just a cop-out on my part to push the thinking onto somebody else.

Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by Silhouette on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @12:41PM (#11863526)
In theory, I like the idea that the winner's legal fees are just another item in play when the judge decides how to award damages.

In effect, this is exactly what happens in most loser-pays systems. Loser-pays usually doesn't mean literally that the winner automatically gets all of their fees paid, no matter how abusive their practices during the case or how disproportionate their expenses. More often it means that the judge can award those fees and there is some sort of presumption in favour of the winner of the case not losing out financially.

Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by mikeash on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @01:14PM (#11863815)
Then I guess either that's not what people mean when they say that the US should adopt a "loser pays" system, or they're unaware that the US already does this.
Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by clavalle on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @11:11AM (#11862753)
The one major pitfall of 'loser pays' is that it creates greater risk for legitimate complainants that might still lose. It is less direct but still favors entities that can absorb that risk. Even so, I think you are right and it could be helpful especially if there is some 'legitimacy threshold' that must be crossed before it is invoked to keep the actual cases that need to be heard and judged by legal experts to be teased apart fairly from being quashed prematurely.
Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by teej on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @11:07AM (#11862708)
It's called the English Rule. People argue that implementing it could disincentivize people bringing forth valid cases and that it could lower the liklihood of settling, increasing legal and court costs for cases that do go through.

I don't really have an opinion either way, those are just the common arguments against it.

Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by Silhouette on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @12:37PM (#11863502)
They're common arguments, but the predicted falling skies don't happen very often in practice. Meanwhile, there is far less of a problem with barratry under loser pays than the US system seems to have.
Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by ogreveins on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @11:44AM (#11862988)
As long as it's no more than the price of the cheaper legal team this method would work. That way poorer people who have been wronged are not heavily deterred from filing suit.
Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by macspoofing on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @11:10AM (#11862738)
It deincentives those who don't have deep pockets from asserting their rights through the judicial system.
Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by DocG on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @01:51PM (#11864101)
Also, depositing 10% of the sued ammount would clean the place right up and bring ammouts to a more reasonable level. If I am correct, this is how it works in my country.
Re:Being sued, in East Texas, for using the Google Play Stor... by NTripleOne on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @11:06AM (#11862702)
Some people would make a lot less money.