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Re:Tontines may make sense despite their history of disrepute by jessriedel on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @08:49AM (#11861860)
This is completely correct. The only reason these sorts of silly financial instruments are available, and the only reason you're not at the top of the thread, is because the level of basic economic literacy is so low.

The question of why annuities are relatively unpopular is an interesting social/institutional one. From talking to some financial planners, it sounds like some crooked origins gave them a bad reputation (like used cars) that they have struggled to shake. Even today there are an unusual number of scummy annuities, although it's much lower than in the past. I suspect it's because they have several moving parts, and are a bit harder for the financial unsavvy to value and compare between companies, so the market gets more swindlers.

EDIT: I previously also wrote "and the only reason this article is in the Washington Post without directly addressing these points," which is incorrect, as roymurdock helpfully pointed out.

Re:Tontines may make sense despite their history of disrepute by roymurdock on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @09:19AM (#11862063)
The article addresses both your point and the GP's point directly:

Economists have long said that the rational thing to do is to buy an annuity. At retirement age, you could pay an insurance company $100,000 in return for some $5,000-6,000 a year in guaranteed payments until you die. But most people don’t do that. For decades, economists have been trying to figure out why.

James Poterba, an economics professor at MIT who has extensively studied American retirement, says it’s still a mystery why annuities are so unpopular. A number of theories have been advanced — people might like to leave some money for their children, or they might worry about medical expenses late in life. Poterba and his colleagues have also pointed out that Social Security is already like an annuity, promising constant payments for life.

But there’s also some evidence that people just irrationally dislike annuities. As behavioral economist Richard Thaler wrote in the New York Times: “Rather than viewing an annuity as providing insurance in the event that one lives past 85 or 90, most people seem to consider buying an annuity as a gamble, in which one has to live a certain number of years just to break even.”

Here is where tontines come in. If people irrationally fear annuities because they seem like a gamble on one's own life, history suggests that they irrationally loved tontines because they see tontines as a gamble on other people's lives.

I agree that financial literacy in the US is low, and the basic accounting/finance classes should be required at the high school level, but this article is good and draws upon a decent amount of actual economic literature. I recommend reading it to the end.

Re:Tontines may make sense despite their history of disrepute by spacehome on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @12:57PM (#11863685)
I really wanted to like annuities. It's a great concept, but when I looked into annuities, they were all pretty bad deals as compared to just investing in the market yourself. It is true that you offload some risk, but the price you pay for lowering your risk is just too high.
Re:Tontines may make sense despite their history of disrepute by jessriedel on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @03:23PM (#11864866)
Can you quantify that at all? What's "too high"?
Re:Tontines may make sense despite their history of disrepute by iumtuip2001 on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @11:50AM (#11863035)
I'd like to put forward another possible reason why someone might opt to not get an annuity...

If you are financially savvy, or can pay someone else to be, does it not make more sense to invest your money yourself? There are a number of "too big to fail" companies, like GM, and Wells Fargo, that offer dividends. If you composed a portfolio of high dividend, stable, stocks... Could you theoretically have a "guaranteed" monthly income AND the ability to liquidate, in the event of an emergency?

Re:Tontines may make sense despite their history of disrepute by mywittyname on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @12:49PM (#11863598)
Perhaps the guaranteed payments of an annuity exceed the guaranteed returns of an investment portfolio. The companies managing the annuities have the capital to invest in businesses and ventures that a typical person can't. Such as financing, large real estate developments, or investments in startups, small businesses, or private equity.

With a stock portfolio, the only guarantee cash-flow is dividends since capital appreciation varies a lot year-to-year. Dividends are usually in the 2-3% range. A large, diversified real-estate portfolio might see 8-15% yearly returns in cash, which can be distributed, saved, or reinvested as needed.

Re:Tontines may make sense despite their history of disrepute by greeneggs on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @12:53PM (#11863638)
> If you composed a portfolio of high dividend, stable, stocks... Could you theoretically have a "guaranteed" monthly income AND the ability to liquidate, in the event of an emergency?

No. You can buy an annuity, or US Treasury bonds, but guaranteed high returns don't exist, and adding in a liquidity requirement doesn't help.

Note that GM declared bankruptcy in 2009. Even if it is still "too big to fail," that doesn't mean investors can't lose all their money.

Re:Tontines may make sense despite their history of disrepute by iumtuip2001 on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @06:08PM (#11866092)
I never claimed guaranteed high returns. An annuity doesn't guarantee you "high" monthly income. It guarantees you AN monthly income.

My comment was to address the question regarding why more people don't use annuities, and I'm not sure your response counters that.

Regarding GM, yes, I'm aware they went bankrupt. But correct me if I'm wrong - Investors didn't lose their shares? The government bailed them out, and they're operational today. That's what I mean by "too big to fail".

Re:Tontines may make sense despite their history of disrepute by greeneggs on Monday June 13, 2016 @10:52AM (#11894307)
> In the case of GM, investors who held shares of the company before its reorganization saw their equity holdings cancelled in March, 2011. Per the company's reorganization plan, they did not receive any shares of the "new" GM.

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/02/23/what-a-corp...

Re:Tontines may make sense despite their history of disrepute by jessriedel on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @03:19PM (#11864831)
No, that doesn't insure against old age. Consider this method of getting a guaranteed income: take your pot of money M and divide it by N, where N is the maximum number of years you could expect to live (if, say, you lived to 121). Then you can get a guaranteed income of M/N per year. But this is silly, because most of the time you die much earlier, and the money goes to waste.

The whole point is to transfer money from worlds where you die early to worlds where you die late. An annuity does this by pooling your money with many people living to different ages. For a large pool and accurate actuarial tables, the number of people who die every year can be predicted, so one can determine an amount of money to pay out each year such that each surviving person gets the same amount each year, with long-surviving people getting more total money (as desired).

Re:Tontines may make sense despite their history of disrepute by ianai on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @10:09AM (#11862350)
I'd bet it's mostly to do with fear of sudden, large expenses. Part of the reason to save up a large stock of funds is to be able to pay off big, unexpected bills. To shell out a large sum for an annuity also requires them to shell out (some?) of that ability. The elderly probably couple that with a disdain for taking on financial debt.
Re:Tontines may make sense despite their history of disrepute by jessriedel on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @09:48AM (#11862229)
I actually did read this article to the end back when it was written last year, but I wrote the above comment based on a faulty memory. Thank you for the correction. The problem with the article is less than I claimed, but it is still written in a confusing and sensational way.
Re:Tontines may make sense despite their history of disrepute by matt_holden on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @10:12AM (#11862373)
The unpopularity of annuities seems like a direct consequence of loss aversion, which says losses are more psychologically powerful than equivalent gains. [1]

If I trade $100k in savings for an annuity, I'm starting off at a deep "loss", which becomes a "gain" only at some point in the uncertain future. Not surprising that most people won't take that bet.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_aversion

Re:Tontines may make sense despite their history of disrepute by Jtsummers on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @10:28AM (#11862467)
A lot of people also don't understand annuities. They don't understand how their bank (or whoever) can guarantee them a paycheck every year at a certain amount. It seems it's often not explained as a form of insurance.
Re:Tontines may make sense despite their history of disrepute by tim333 on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @12:22PM (#11863356)
Also I understand them but the rates seem a bit rubbish. I just got a quote for a 55 year old and they offered 3.7% (this is in the UK). For comparison you could buy rental property and get a yield like 6% plus capital appreciation. With property, you suddenly want a lump sum, you can sell or mortgage. With the annuity you are out of luck. Also the rent goes up with inflation, this annuity I think not.
Re:Tontines may make sense despite their history of disrepute by Jtsummers on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @03:48PM (#11865066)
I meant to reply earlier, but <something, something, work>. Anyways, now that I'm off:

jessriedel found an annuity with a good return. But I also have another point to make:

Annuities mitigate risk. This is the same reason people invest in various government bonds (directly or wrapped up in other investment packages). You're getting a guaranteed return on an annuity. Your rent (and the underlying property) are not guaranteed. The risk in them offers greater opportunity for profit, yes. So why not do both? If you have the money, you ought to consider both (if you can find a good annuity or similar investment).

If you don't have enough money, your choice will come down to your risk tolerance. I'm 33. I'm physically fit, rarely ill, with no debt, a college degree, a stable job, and even if it weren't stable I'm a more than competent programmer and mathematician so I can find work somewhere. I can invest in riskier things than, say, my 60 year-old parents with the almost paid off house, who would have to move (emotionally challenging at their age) to find gainful employment (also difficult at their age) should they lose their money in a bad investment. For them (also note: annuities are targeted at this age group due to the way the sellers of them make profit off of them), an annuity with a decent return is better than purchasing and renting out a place if they have to choose one.

If they have the resources, they don't have to choose. If you're young, take the high-risk investments, as you age move your earnings to safer, stabler, lower earning investments, and retire with confidence.

Re:Tontines may make sense despite their history of disrepute by jessriedel on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @03:34PM (#11864947)
This Vanguard annuity paying $1k/month starting at age 65 costs $168k, i.e., 7.1%.

https://investor.vanguard.com/annuity/fixed

If you just directly attached this to a dummy pot of $120k, you'd have a $1k/month annuity at age 55 for $288k, which is already 4.2%. It also comes with the significant bonus that your estate keeps the $168k, plus what's left of the $120k, if you die before 65.

So basically, I just think there are much better annuities out there than what you found.

Re:Tontines may make sense despite their history of disrepute by mattkrause on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @12:28PM (#11863418)
Isn't there some counter-party risk that the bank (or whoever) might go under? With regular insurance, that's not really an issue--I'll just find another provider--but for an annuity, your money would be gone.

This risk also pretty hard to evaluate, as everyone seemed to discover around 2009.

Re:Tontines may make sense despite their history of disrepute by ianhawes on Wednesday June 08, 2016 @09:12AM (#11862016)
The article touches on this somewhat, but I think said differently:

In an annuity, you're gambling against your own death.

In a tontine, you're gambling against the deaths of others.

From a purely cultural perspective, I think most Americans would rather gamble against the deaths of others.