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Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by downandout on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @06:21PM (#11818718)
I believe that your assumption of insane driver subsidies is indeed the reason they are sucking down so much money. That is a problem, because the moment that people have to pay the actual costs of an Uber ride, they may go back to taxis or driving their own cars.

The only strategy I can see with the absurd amounts they are raising is that they are trying to get enough money to sustain the subsidies until they kill all existing competition, at which point they can raise their prices and people will have no choice but to pay them - much like Standard Oil did. In today's world though, I'm not sure that such a strategy can work.

It will be interesting to see what happens. Perhaps there is a chance of success. But if Uber were a public company, personally I'd be shorting every share that I could.

Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by morgante on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @09:17PM (#11819670)
> That is a problem, because the moment that people have to pay the actual costs of an Uber ride, they may go back to taxis or driving their own cars.

There doesn't seem to be evidence of that.

Uber is apparently profitable in its mature markets (mainly the US).[0]

The money is mostly used to prop up new markets, where you have to give lots of incentives to get both sides of the market in place fast (keeping supply and demand matched is the constant challenge of nascent two-sided marketplaces).

That being said, the fact that they're having to turn to Saudi money (nobody's preferred source) isn't encouraging.

[0] http://fortune.com/2016/02/18/uber-profitable-us/

Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by iaw on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @09:53PM (#11819817)
"Profitable" under non-GAAP measures maybe. Their efforts to hit actual profitability in US markets has led to a lot of driver backlash.

I wouldn't trust a thing that company says about their cashflows until they are in SEC filings.

Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by alttab on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @09:47PM (#11819797)
I got some blood testing machines I'd love to sell you.
Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by toomuchtodo on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @11:54PM (#11820250)
While driving home this evening listening to NPR's Marketplace, Kai Ryssdal specifically mentioned that Forbes removed Elizabeth Holems from their list of richest self-made women. Her stake in Theranos is now valued at $0 [1].

Capitalism giveth, and capitalism taketh away.

[1] https://news.fastcompany.com/elizabeth-holmess-net-worth-is-...

Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by hkmurakami on Thursday June 02, 2016 @12:45AM (#11820428)
It's hard to believe that she didn't take some money off the table during the frothy fundraising years of yesteryear.
Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by cft on Thursday June 02, 2016 @12:29AM (#11820373)
According to this article her net worth is $400m. That's still a lot of money.
Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by toomuchtodo on Thursday June 02, 2016 @01:04PM (#11824157)
http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/01/technology/elizabeth-holmes-...

> Forbes said it has reexamined and revised Theranos' $9 billion valuation in light of recent investigations and allegations against the company.

> Citing conversations with venture capitalists and analysts, Forbes estimates that the company is actually worth a great deal less: $800 million. That takes into account its intellectual property and financing, according to Forbes' Matthew Herper.

> Holmes' 50% stake in the company would effectively be worth nothing at that valuation, Forbes concludes, because her investors would be paid back first (they hold preferred stock, not common stock like Holmes).

Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by nyc8821227 on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @10:01PM (#11819850)
I laughed out loud when I read this
Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by madebylaw on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @10:04PM (#11819860)
Uber and Lyft are paying their largest referral bonuses in the "mature" markets (major US cities, e.g. $750 in Chicago recently). They are churning and burning part-time giggers who leave after the bonus is earned or the incentive expires.
Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by aetherson on Thursday June 02, 2016 @12:17AM (#11820328)
Recent Uber and Lyft drivers in SF have both told me that there are big incentives going out to drivers right now. I suppose it's conceivable that somehow the market is none-the-less profitable, but I don't really see how. They were saying like +$10 per ride if they hit the highest tier of payouts.
Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by DavidWanjiru on Thursday June 02, 2016 @02:38AM (#11820767)
The question them becomes, did Uber need to use similar subsidy tactics to become profitable in its mature markets? If yes, then this is just rinse and repeat, no problem. If no, then I'd argue there'll be trouble ahead.
Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by taxicabjesus on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @06:35PM (#11818824)
> The only strategy I can see with the absurd amounts of fundraising is that they are trying to get enough money to sustain the subsidies until they kill all existing competition, at which point they can raise their prices and people will have no choice but to pay them

The taxi company I drove for has contracts with many government agencies to transport poor & unfortunate people around. People have to get to their doctor (Arizona Medicaid) appointments, to the hospital, home from the hospital, foster kids transported to meetings with their parents, etc.

These fares pay better than Uber's non-surge fares.

/methinks "ride share" companies are run by founders suffering from delusions of grandeur. When they run out of venture capital, the realities of transporting people from place to place will reassert themselves.

Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by Thriptic on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @06:47PM (#11818913)
I've heard that Uber is going after those contracts as well.
Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by martinald on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @06:42PM (#11818877)
But Standard Oil literally bought the refineries, railroad, long term contracts on crude.

That would be like Uber buying every road and every manufacturer.

I also don't think Uber's biggest competition is cars or taxis, I imagine it is public transport. The markets with the best scale (esp outside of US) have good public transit. People aren't going to go from paying a £10 uber to a £30 black taxi in London, they'll go back to getting the tube or the bus home after a night out.

Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by HillaryBriss on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @11:19PM (#11820149)
> I also don't think Uber's biggest competition is cars or taxis, I imagine it is public transport.

Also worth noting: Los Angeles is not like London or Paris or NYC where you can very often walk to a nearby mass transit station. In many parts of Los Angeles, Uber can serve as a useful complement to the public transport system. For example, one can quickly take Uber to a rail station which then travels the rest of your route underground -- thus avoiding traffic jams.

If Uber did not exist in LA, one would be more likely to just get in one's car for the entire journey: buses take too long to get you to the underground station, and taxis are too expensive.

It's also important to keep in mind that, in Los Angeles, Uber cars arrive really promptly by comparison to public transport buses. If your time in, say, the office, is really valuable, then the Uber service offers more value than a bus, because buses require a lot more time to transport you than an Uber car does.

I know this sounds like an ad for Uber, but I have no connection to the company, except as an occasional customer.

Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by macspoofing on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @07:59PM (#11819331)
I don't know about London, but in my area an UberX ride is 4-5x the price of a bus ticket (~10km). This only gets worse as the distance grows. Public transit is not Uber's competition and it'll never replace mass transit.
Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by loeg on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @08:22PM (#11819441)
You can split an Uber 4 ways but you can't split a bus fare. So if you go out with a few friends it becomes much more reasonable for short trips. If Uber gets more expensive, some people will go back to public transit.
Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by macspoofing on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @08:30PM (#11819489)
>You can split an Uber 4 ways but you can't split a bus fare.

Like a taxi?

Uber will never come close to moving the sheer numbers that public transit does. You can't do it, not enough road to fit all those cars. Especially in downtown cores.

So Uber competes with public transit as much as taxis compete with public transit.

Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by loeg on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @11:48PM (#11820233)
Yes, like a taxi. The primary benefits Uber has over traditional Taxis are 1. price; 2. they have an app, and it works well; 3. drivers arrive in vaguely predictable times that are less than 45 minutes; and 4. it doesn't discriminate as badly as cabbies.

> Uber will never come close to moving the sheer numbers that public transit does. You can't do it, not enough road to fit all those cars. Especially in downtown cores.

I never suggested anything of the sort. Especially not at commute hours.

> So Uber competes with public transit as much as taxis compete with public transit.

I think we agree. I just noted that if Uber prices rose, some Uber users would prefer to use public transit rather than pay higher Uber prices or Taxi prices.

Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by kuschku on Thursday June 02, 2016 @03:34AM (#11820933)
The only thing uber has over most taxis in Germany is that they’re cheaper. And that they don’t have proper insurance.
Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by gaius on Thursday June 02, 2016 @03:13AM (#11820872)
2-4 apply to every taxi firm these days too
Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by estefan on Thursday June 02, 2016 @11:57AM (#11823552)
I wasn't sure if it was just me, but in that case what makes Uber so valuable? Are they banking on putting all the taxi companies out of business and then monopolising the market?
Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by driverdan on Thursday June 02, 2016 @08:21AM (#11821885)
Not in the US. Taxi companies in US cities are terrible.
Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by TeMPOraL on Thursday June 02, 2016 @10:09AM (#11822543)
A great marketing win for Uber here. It became known worldwide as an "innovative technology company" even though outside US, it's only innovation is funneling SV money to lawyers so that they can maintain their illegal business practices while they conquer the local markets. E.g. in Europe we've already had all the other "innovative" stuff. But people don't notice it, instead naively buying the "Uber = innovation" marketing.
Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by scarmig on Thursday June 02, 2016 @11:47AM (#11823440)
The funny thing here is that a couple cab companies have done seemingly irreparable damage to the worldwide taxi industry, merely by virtue of being based in San Francisco and allowing drivers to regularly flake or refuse service to slightly less profitable areas.
Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by gaius on Thursday June 02, 2016 @10:13AM (#11822579)
Interesting. In my mid-sized town, the local, independent taxi firm has all of them. The app, text messaging when you book, when the driver is on his way, when he's at your front door along with the make, colour and license plate of the car, etc etc.
Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by scythe on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @11:20PM (#11820150)
That only holds true at peak hours. For off-peak uses, ride-sharing can compete with buses; in an electric car world, cost-effectively as well.
Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by cmurf on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @10:23PM (#11819930)
Taxis are a kind of public transit. So call me skeptical if Uber manages to sink taxis and this is part of their long term strategy, because unless they have enough money to become the sovereign in their dominant markets, they're going to end up being regulated by the local government should they supplant taxis.
Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by CydeWeys on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @10:55PM (#11820054)
I know what point you're trying to make, but taxis are explicitly not public transit. Busses, trains, planes, ferries, etc., are all public transit, regardless of whether they are publicly or privately owned. For-hire taxis, coaches, limousines, private jets, etc., are all private transport.
Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by codecamper on Thursday June 02, 2016 @09:48AM (#11822397)
Interesting. I think this is a very valid point.

Eventually governments will get wise to the fact that this is not magic. Just a new way to dial up a ride.

Governments didn't allow individuals to install a radio into their private car & drive around making rides. Why should they allow the same just because you have a smartphone?

Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by Nullabillity on Thursday June 02, 2016 @03:29AM (#11820917)
Nope, but most people who take public transit regularly already have a monthly fixed-price subscription. So that trip is pretty much free already, unless people start commuting by taxi...
Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by im3w1l on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @11:55PM (#11820252)
I don't think the multiple is the relevant metric. People aren't going "should I buy 5 bus tickets or should I buy 1 uber x ride?" The number of rides is pretty much fixed. The choice they are making is "should I upgrade my ride experience, if it means I have to downgrade an experience in another area?" So you should rather compare the price to other "upgrades" people are buying.
Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by zippergz on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @08:41PM (#11819527)
Sample size of one, but I haven't used public transit in probably close to 10 years, and I use Uber all the time. I definitely would not turn to public transit if Uber shut down. I'm sure it depends on the city and the quality of its transit offerings.
Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by wpietri on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @08:13PM (#11819397)
I think buying up the whole value chain is an effect of monopolies, not the cause. DeBeers, for example, got their start in diamond mining. I suppose they could have stopped there, but when you're the only supplier, it becomes very easy to buy up those of your customers that are making money so you can capture more of the total cash.

So I don't think Uber needs to buy roads. All they need to do is have a broad enough base and deep enough pockets that they can drive everybody else out of business. Or, possibly better, keep a few sickly competitors forever on the margins. That way they can pretend they're really competing.

Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by linkregister on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @09:48PM (#11819802)
I think it's unrealistic to think that Lyft will be a sickly competitor. It has less cash to push toward subsidizing rides but I could foresee it sticking around, especially since many drivers use both ride share apps.
Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by codecamper on Thursday June 02, 2016 @09:52AM (#11822425)
I thought that each network will stop giving you rides if you don't take them & you are in the area without a fare.
Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by em3rgent0rdr on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @10:56PM (#11820061)
Uber's biggest competitor will be an open-source p2p-system, like openbazaar, that achieves the basic functionality of uber.
Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by woah on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @11:47PM (#11820232)
What advantage will such a system have?
Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by froo on Thursday June 02, 2016 @02:06AM (#11820660)
Probably none. By having an open system, prices will invariably get pushed down (better for end users) which will deincentivize drivers (worse for end users)

There may be some equilibrium somewhere, but I don't believe it will be in the users best interest having to wait for cars.

Just my thoughts. I'm probably wrong.

Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by em3rgent0rdr on Thursday June 02, 2016 @04:47AM (#11821146)
By having an open system, since there is no longer a corporate middleman entity which takes a cut off a profit, and since anyone can compete, therefore prices will get pushed down. But just like any other perfectly-competitive system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_competition), the price in equilibrium will approach the marginal cost when marginal cost equals marginal revenue, not get pushed down indefinitely. I guess that would approximately equal to the market price of uneducated labor willing to drive plus the cost of the car+gas usage, insurance, etc. So price won't drop lower than what is needed to get people to actually drive the cars.

Now of course, maybe also need to be concerned about autonomous cars using this p2p app, in which case just need to pay a slave robot with the minimal energy it requires to drive.

Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by froo on Thursday June 02, 2016 @08:15AM (#11821863)
In an open system, how do you ensure basic safety needs are met - eg, do drivers have licenses?

I sure as hell am not getting into a car with an unlicensed driver

Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by em3rgent0rdr on Friday June 03, 2016 @02:42AM (#11828742)
a reputation system.
Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by codecamper on Thursday June 02, 2016 @09:53AM (#11822431)
Once robo cars are here, it'll be game over. Google wins.
Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by tlrobinson on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @07:56PM (#11819318)
> The only strategy I can see

A more cynical version: they're trying to pump up their valuation, IPO, and dump their stock before anyone notices.

Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by prostoalex on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @09:30PM (#11819721)
That would make sense if founder/employee liquidity was in the works, but from the information we have it's going straight to the company.
Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by madebylaw on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @10:05PM (#11819865)
This investment didn't change their valuation.
Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by iofj on Monday June 06, 2016 @01:32PM (#11848540)
Maybe it's the old "have some shares, then pay yourself $1M/year" racket then ?
Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by baddox on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @08:22PM (#11819444)
> That is a problem, because the moment that people have to pay the actual costs of an Uber ride, they may go back to taxis or driving their own cars.

It depends what you mean by "actual costs," but I would suspect that Uber's will still be lower than cabs' under any reasonable definition.

Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by coliveira on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @09:42PM (#11819777)
What you forget is that cabs also have incentives not available to Uber, such as lower fleet costs and tax advantages in certain cities. If you compare transportation costs without Uber subsidies, cabs are very competitive in some markets.
Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by tedmiston on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @08:49PM (#11819562)
> I would suspect that Uber's will still be lower than cabs'

What people pay for an Uber still varies a lot by city.

At home in Ohio, Uber is more expensive than taxis in several cases, for example, to/from the airport, and short trips from the city center to the bars (2-3 miles). Taxis are also generally cheaper here for longer trips (maybe 30+ miles).

Similarly taxis can still be cheaper (and are still ubiquitous) in NYC.

Re:Uber Turns to Saudi Arabia for $3.5B Cash Infusion by bastawhiz on Thursday June 02, 2016 @02:01AM (#11820647)
> That is a problem, because the moment that people have to pay the actual costs of an Uber ride, they may go back to taxis or driving their own cars.

While price increases do happen, they generally have nothing to do with driver incentives. Incentives for drivers are (usually) meant to build supply, not cut the cost of rides.