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Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by jeffdavis on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @03:13AM (#11812590)
Let's say you have a person living in a remote area and they don't interact much with other people and they don't have a basic income. Are they free?

Let's say someone lives in the city without BI, is it fair to say that moving into the wilderness is an option for them, and therefore they are free? Does it change if they started in the wilderness?

Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by lmm on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @04:37AM (#11812889)
Note that there is (virtually) no terra nullis any more, and likely not enough wilderness to accommodate today's world population living the kind of lifestyle one can live on without interacting with other people.
Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by drabiega on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @09:37AM (#11814204)
I've stated elsewhere, I don't think it is fair to say that moving into the wilderness is an option. As cheap as land is in some remote areas, it's still beyond the resources of the people for whom it would be an improvement from their current situation.
Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by jeffdavis on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @10:21AM (#11814525)
That doesn't really answer the question though: if you could live in the wilderness, is that freedom?
Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by marcus_holmes on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @11:56AM (#11815444)
I kinda does answer the question. If there isn't any "wilderness" to live in, because it's all owned by people, then the question is pointless.

I live in Australia, where we actually do face this question. There are Aboriginal people living on their ancestral lands in the outback. They have dramatically shorter lifespans and worse health conditions. There are all sorts of reasons for this, not least that colonialist administrations have messed with their ability to live on their land. But the government now faces a choice:

- do we let them live out in the bush on their ancestral lands, where they have these measurably worse lives by all the standards we use to measure such things, or - do we remove them from their lands and try to improve their life choices so they live better (in all the standards we measure such things).

This question basically comes down to: if a person wants to live free in the wilderness, but the cost of that freedom is a dramatic reduction in their health, life expectancy, education, and quality of life, should we let them?

We haven't really worked out an answer yet, but it is increasingly looking like the right one is actually "no".

So, to answer your question "if a person wants to live free in the wilderness, are they free?", the answer that we're discovering is: "maybe, it depends on whether they can support themselves and their children to an acceptable standard doing that, and there needs to be government inspectors who decide whether that's the case"

Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by jeffdavis on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @09:42PM (#11819776)
I think your answer here means that "freedom" is essentially a useless word in political discussions. Your definition is radically different than mine.
Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by marcus_holmes on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @10:45PM (#11820019)
It's the same freedom we're talking about in the War Against Drugs. The freedom to kill yourself with narcotics is not something that governments are comfortable granting their citizens.
Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by jeffdavis on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @11:45PM (#11820220)
I have never heard the War on Drugs framed in terms of promoting freedom. Can you give an example?
Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by marcus_holmes on Sunday June 05, 2016 @10:36AM (#11841169)
it isn't. It's a restriction on freedom imposed by governments because allowing people to kill themselves with narcotics is not a freedom that governments are comfortable with.
Re:Moving Forward on Basic Income by quadrangle on Wednesday June 01, 2016 @11:43AM (#11815307)
who gives a shit? The pedantic question of "is that freedom?" only applies to nincompoops who think that ethics or economics revolve around whether or not we achieve some singular dogmatic principle like "freedom". It's far more valuable to ask actually useful questions that have practical answers.