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Re:Microsoft is cutting 1,000 jobs in Finland as it stops ph... by BorgHunter on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @10:44AM (#11770107)
Nokia was doomed before Elop took over. Kallasvuo was CEO when Apple released the first iPhone, and Kallasvuo was the one who decided that Nokia's existing offerings were good enough to compete, just keep minorly refining things every generation. By the time Elop came in, the ship was already sinking (or, if you prefer, the platform was already burning). Elop's decisions did not turn that around, but realistically, could he have?
Re:Microsoft is cutting 1,000 jobs in Finland as it stops ph... by rospaya on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @11:01AM (#11770257)
I agree that Nokia was too slow to compete, but they had massive advantages over both Apple and Google and with good guidance could've survived successfully.

Even years after the iPhone came out, Nokia outsold Apple, had a bigger R&D budget and a bigger foothold in practically every market except North America.

Smartphones outsold feature (dumb) phones only in 2013, five years after the iPhone came out. When did Nokia slip to 3rd place by number of sold devices? Q1 2015.

There was time, just no will.

Re:Microsoft is cutting 1,000 jobs in Finland as it stops ph... by nextos on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @01:17PM (#11771410)
> but they had massive advantages over both Apple and Google and with good guidance could've survived successfully.

I can't agree more. Few people remember the Nokia 770 was released almost 2 years ahead of the iPhone. With a bit of polish it could have grown into a fantastic product line. In fact, the N9 was pretty much a masterpiece.

Re:Microsoft is cutting 1,000 jobs in Finland as it stops ph... by nickik on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @02:50PM (#11772135)
I remember wanting to buy it. I didn't because back then it was to much money for me. I remember thinking that I defently want a future version of it.

For some reason that I don't understand, they continued to push Symbian, and those phones were not good. I remember thinking, either push further on the MeeGo stuff or drop it and move to Android. They did neither and suffered for it.

Re:Microsoft is cutting 1,000 jobs in Finland as it stops ph... by ptaipale on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @04:35PM (#11772849)
Symbian devices were actually very good phones. For making and receiving voice calls, they were better than Android has ever been.

Of course, as a platform for Web browsing, and particularly for app development, Symbian was not good.

But I still miss the phone functionality of my E71, or the Symbian devices I had before it.

Re:Microsoft is cutting 1,000 jobs in Finland as it stops ph... by Grishnakh on Thursday May 26, 2016 @02:53PM (#11780529)
And this was their undoing: thinking that people really cared that much about talking on the phone.

Talking is one of my least-used functions on my Android phone. I use it far, far more for texting, apps, internet, navigation, games, photos, and even visual voicemail than I do for talking. I might have a handful of calls a week on it. A phone that's great for talking and sucks for all the other things would be mostly useless to me.

Re:Microsoft is cutting 1,000 jobs in Finland as it stops ph... by sangnoir on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @07:04PM (#11773877)
> Of course, as a platform for Web browsing, and particularly for app development, Symbian was not good.

So in other words - they were great phones, but terrible smartphones? I fully agree.

Re:Microsoft is cutting 1,000 jobs in Finland as it stops ph... by ptaipale on Thursday May 26, 2016 @04:06AM (#11776407)
Again, depends on what is "smart". For many day-to-day things, Symbian phones were superior to current smart phones as well. Some of this is more about security/commercial setup than technology, but 15 years ago, I was able to synchronize Outlook calendar to a Symbian phone, and it would remind me of my meetings, and it worked great.

Android or iPhone could do the same technically, but my employer can no longer use it. The company would give all data about meetings to Google or Apple. It's an absolute no-no.

Thus I sometimes forget my meetings, as the phone no longer reminds me.

Also, the alarm clock of Symbian was great, and i could depend on it. Even if you turned the phone off, it would wake you up. I'm nervous about trusting any Android device to wake me up in the morning if I have to catch a plane or a train (and I understand it's the same with iPhone).

Re:Microsoft is cutting 1,000 jobs in Finland as it stops ph... by drzaiusapelord on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @04:44PM (#11772935)
>Few people remember the Nokia 770 was released almost 2 years ahead of the iPhone.

I owned one of these. It was an ugly, slow, expensive brick. I'd much rather use a Treo from that period. The iPhone was a wonderfully svelte device compared to either. I don't think you're appreciating how badly Apple beat up the Palm and Nokia competition back then. It was absolutely no contest and a disruption that was badly needed. Holding up the 770 as some under-appreciated jewel is fairly ridiculous. It was comically out of touch with consumers.

Re:Microsoft is cutting 1,000 jobs in Finland as it stops ph... by nextos on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @06:07PM (#11773513)
It was just an alpha device, and a Nokia side-project. It didn't even have a phone radio. The N800 was a pre-iPhone device and quite more polished. The N900 and N9 are, in my opinion, still better than many devices we see today in the market. And they are 6 years old...
Re:Microsoft is cutting 1,000 jobs in Finland as it stops ph... by newjersey on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @11:21AM (#11770408)
I don't have any inside information but as an outsider the main thing that puts pressure on everyone is the margin that Apple commands on its products. People have repeatedly said that even when iPhone had 20% of the smartphones sold, they were taking in a much bigger slice of the pie when it came to profits. How do we tell potential shareholders "you can put your $1 on Apple or you can put your $1 on us but just so you know we have to ship n times as many phones as Apple does just to make the same amount of money that Apple does".
Re:Microsoft is cutting 1,000 jobs in Finland as it stops ph... by biokoda on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @11:22AM (#11770416)
> Smartphones outsold feature (dumb) phones only in 2013, five years after the iPhone came out.

Yes but who had higher profits? That's the real factor. Outselling by itself is meaningless if your margins are poor.

Re:Microsoft is cutting 1,000 jobs in Finland as it stops ph... by tn13 on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @04:06PM (#11772672)
I agree. In India Nokia was voted as "Most Trusted Brand" for years. Cell phone == Nokia in India. All they had to do was to put Android in some phones as an arbitrage move and they could have still been the leader in that space in India. Which has grown like 8x in last 5 years.
Re:Microsoft is cutting 1,000 jobs in Finland as it stops ph... by twblalock on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @04:22PM (#11772754)
If Elop had bet on Android instead of Windows Phone, Nokia would probably be doing well.
Re:Microsoft is cutting 1,000 jobs in Finland as it stops ph... by x0x0 on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @04:30PM (#11772817)
Almost certainly not. Have you seen the profit numbers at Samsung, Motorola, and HTC? They're getting destroyed by Android competitors like Xiaomi, Huawei, etc and Apple.
Re:Microsoft is cutting 1,000 jobs in Finland as it stops ph... by twblalock on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @04:39PM (#11772893)
What makes you think Nokia would have ended up like Samsung/Motorola/HTC rather than Xiaomi/Huawei/etc? Nokia at least had a chance to be one of the profitable ones.
Re:Microsoft is cutting 1,000 jobs in Finland as it stops ph... by godzillabrennus on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @05:14PM (#11773168)
There are no profitable android makers.

Apple has 94% of the profits in mobile: http://iphone.appleinsider.com/articles/15/11/16/apple-inc-n...

We will never know for sure by Nokia shareholders might have gotten an amazing deal out of going Windows Mobile and getting acquired by Microsoft. As for the employees, this would have happened either way with how badly the company was prepared for smartphones.

Re:Microsoft is cutting 1,000 jobs in Finland as it stops ph... by sytelus on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @09:01PM (#11774439)
Recent Samsung financial results say that their profit growth is fueled in part by Galaxy S7. So, no, there are fairly profitable android makers.

http://www.theverge.com/2016/4/27/11523616/samsung-earnings-...

Re:Microsoft is cutting 1,000 jobs in Finland as it stops ph... by x0x0 on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @07:15PM (#11773938)
Because every android manufacturer will end with virtually no profit since they are producing a commodity. When you basically can't differentiate with your software except for which shitty skin you layered on top of Android, what makes a samsung better than an lg or any other android device?
Re:Microsoft is cutting 1,000 jobs in Finland as it stops ph... by Teckla on Friday May 27, 2016 @07:39PM (#11789841)
Because every android manufacturer will end with virtually no profit since they are producing a commodity. When you basically can't differentiate with your software except for which shitty skin you layered on top of Android, what makes a samsung better than an lg or any other android device?

Updates. Updates, updates, updates.

I've come to trust Apple. Why? Because my iPad 2 still gets OS and security updates. Because my iPhone 5s still gets OS and security updates.

Apple has demonstrated that they support their tablets and phones at least 4 or 5 years. That's why I'll buy another Apple tablet. That's why I'll buy another Apple phone.

Why would I buy an Android phone or tablet that's unsupported and abandoned after less than two years in many cases? Where security updates (think Stagefright) take months and months to get patched, if they ever get patched at all on your device? Android devices simply aren't safe.

Even the Nexus devices can't compete with Apple on longevity of support.

Android manufacturers could convince me to try their products if they'd simply patch them in a reasonable time and update them for a reasonable amount of time. I would define reasonable as at least 4 full years after purchase. For that, I'd pay Apple like premiums.

Until that time comes, my only viable option is Apple.

Re:Microsoft is cutting 1,000 jobs in Finland as it stops ph... by Grishnakh on Thursday May 26, 2016 @02:56PM (#11780558)
This is rather ignorant. Hardware is what makes Samsungs (for example) better: superAMOLED screens (which iPhones still don't have), better cameras, waterproof cases, removable batteries, etc. Can you drop your crappy iPhone in the pool? No, but a Galaxy S5 can handle that with no trouble, while having a better screen, removable battery, and upgradable SD card storage.
Re:Microsoft is cutting 1,000 jobs in Finland as it stops ph... by x0x0 on Thursday May 26, 2016 @06:35PM (#11782231)
Yeah, but no. There's nothing stopping Huawei or anyone else from exactly copying that Samsung. And then what's the difference between the two? Nothing except price.

OTOH, nobody can copy an iphone because nobody but apple can put ios on a phone.

Re:Microsoft is cutting 1,000 jobs in Finland as it stops ph... by Grishnakh on Thursday May 26, 2016 @11:04PM (#11783622)
The problem with that idea is that if Huawei really could copy the Samsung, then why haven't they? I'd love to see more phones up to Samsung's specs, but I'm not seeing any. Heck, I'd love to see Samsung make a phone to those specs again (the S6 was crap and the S7 still doesn't have a user-replaceable battery though at least they finally put waterproofing back in).

The other difference is quality. I have no faith Huawei can make a phone at Samsung's quality level. Where are they going to get the screen from anyway? Or the camera? Those components aren't easy to copy; those things are state-of-the-art.

Finally, even Apple can't copy Samsung. They still have crappy screens, though the next iPhone is finally supposed to be getting a superAMOLED screen. WTF took them so long? Simple: Apple isn't a hardware manufacturer, they have to contract stuff out, whereas Samsung is a hardware maker, and makes state-of-the-art screens themselves.

Re:Microsoft is cutting 1,000 jobs in Finland as it stops ph... by twblalock on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @08:35PM (#11774310)
Hardware is the differentiator.
Re:Microsoft is cutting 1,000 jobs in Finland as it stops ph... by xiaoma on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @06:21PM (#11773612)
Xiaomi and Huawei aren't Android competitors. They run Android on their phones!
Re:Microsoft is cutting 1,000 jobs in Finland as it stops ph... by winterswift on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @06:51PM (#11773800)
Perhaps they meant that foreign (specifically Chinese) competition has done much better globally than those companies currently holding most of the US market.
Re:Microsoft is cutting 1,000 jobs in Finland as it stops ph... by x0x0 on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @07:10PM (#11773910)
I meant android producing competitors, as contrasted to apple. Which I think was pretty obvious in context.
Re:Microsoft is cutting 1,000 jobs in Finland as it stops ph... by bitmapbrother on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @10:23PM (#11774821)
I'm always amused by these Windows phone supporters that will argue until their red in the face that Nokia would have still suffered the same fate had they went Android. They have nothing to back their empty claims other than hate. The truth is that they would have fared way better had they selected Android instead of dollar cost averaging the windows phone fiasco all the way to the bottom. Nokia was destroyed by Microsoft. The only saving grace is the 8 Billion dollar severance package they got by unloading the carcass to Microsoft.
Re:Microsoft is cutting 1,000 jobs in Finland as it stops ph... by hannele on Thursday May 26, 2016 @01:31AM (#11775732)
I guess, we'll see how that turns out for Blackberry.