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Re:Programmers are not different, they need simple UIs by beat on Tuesday May 24, 2016 @03:00PM (#11764528)
As an artist as well as a programmer, I've learned a lot about the techniques of professional artists. Most are specialists, not generalists. They have a specific, focused toolbox, and they do not leave it. If a guitarist gets that sound from this guitar and amp and pedals and scales and rhythms, he sticks to that. If a painter prefers these subjects and those brushes and paints and canvas sizes, she sticks to that.

Become proficient in a medium to the point where absolutely no conscious thought is required to use it to its fullest extent. That's the secret of great artists.

Apply that to programming, now. You can learn a field and the core tech of the field, and get a lot done for a long time. Or you can go chasing the new and shiny every six months and drive yourself up a wall and spend all your time learning instead of making.

Re:Programmers are not different, they need simple UIs by mikekchar on Tuesday May 24, 2016 @09:54PM (#11767142)
Some short advice from an older programmer: this is the best way to ensure that you are unemployed in 20 years. Art is old (even older than me!). You can specialize in something and have a pretty darn good feeling of assurance that it isn't going to go away before you die.

Programming is a young field. It's changing dramatically from year to year. My first paying job was writing FORTH code. At one point I was writing OO C code on an embedded platform because we didn't have a C++ compiler. Eventually I became an expert in C++ (like an actual expert). A few years ago I went to a job interview and they asked me questions about Boost. I had to tell them that back when I was an expert in C++, the STL hadn't even been written. We were all using RougueWave. I've been paid to work in Perl, Python, Java, C#, Ruby, Go, Javascript and several other languages you will never have heard of because they were proprietary languages written by the companies I work for. I've built embedded systems, real time systems, distributed systems and now I'm trying to fix 10 year old Ruby on Rails code.

The thing is that none of the stuff I do is really all that different. It's just the details that change. Every time I learn something that is truly different, I always find a way to apply it to what I'm doing (if you look above you will notice a huge hole where functional programming should be... it's getting filled).

This field is about learning every day. If you want to be more than average and you want to stay that way for more than 10 years, then you have to accept that you will be spending all of your time learning. And making.

HTH!

Re:Programmers are not different, they need simple UIs by beat on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @10:22AM (#11769934)
I am an older programmer, and what you described is my career, more or less. And I fight off recruiters with a stick, switch jobs every year, and laugh at the articles about how there's ageism in the industry.

The problem I typically see isn't that someone focused on a technology for too long and became unemployable. It's that they focused on an employer for too long and became unemployable. I started my career doing C and sql 20+ years ago. I could still easily make a living at them if I wanted. My second major technology was enterprise Java. I could still make a living at that if I wanted (and to an extent, I still do).

But people spent 10-20 years in a culture. They don't know how to even look for a job anymore. Their skills may be great, but they've never put in a job application online. They're unknown to the recruiters. They don't know how to write a good resume that reflects their abilities. I watched my wife go through it last year. Laid off after 15 years at one company, her problems were twofold. First, she had narrow but deep domain expertise. Second, she was rusty at job hunting and out of touch with industry standards that had evolved without her. She still believed in waterfall and thought agile was a joke - not good for someone looking for product owner roles! She learned, but it took a while.

Re:Programmers are not different, they need simple UIs by jgh on Tuesday May 24, 2016 @11:31PM (#11767491)
I don't think that those two options are mutually exclusive, you can specialize and keep up with the times...I think you kinda need to recognize the direction the times are moving in to keep up though.
Re:Programmers are not different, they need simple UIs by davidjnelson on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @12:25AM (#11767655)
I can see validity to both of your perspectives. How about the t shaped engineer concept? I like this description of the t shaped engineer: http://business.stackoverflow.com/blog/should-you-hire-t-sha...
Re:Programmers are not different, they need simple UIs by mikekchar on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @04:39AM (#11768451)
Yes. I can agree with that. Career strategy is tricky in this business so it's best to keep a flexible mind.
Re:Programmers are not different, they need simple UIs by OpenDrapery on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @09:40AM (#11769648)
Seems to me that most technical people in this business have no career strategy. They settle into a job and inertia takes hold, and a body at rest tends to stay at rest until a force is applied to move it. So they will sit their butt in a seat and be underutilized, and perform mind numbing work, with a nagging voice in their head telling them that their tech muscles are experiencing atrophy, but yet still they stay put until the bitter end.
Re:Programmers are not different, they need simple UIs by jazzyk on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @10:47AM (#11770123)
Really applies to all people, not just tech people.
Re:Programmers are not different, they need simple UIs by kecks on Tuesday May 24, 2016 @03:09PM (#11764601)
What if you make your core competence as a programmer "gaining steady footing in new tech", along with basic like code structuring, version control and some automation (CI/testing etc.)?

That way you might not become "the greatest X86 assembly programmer" or whatever niche you like, but you might become a very proficient system integrator, which is useful in its own right.

Re:Programmers are not different, they need simple UIs by beat on Tuesday May 24, 2016 @03:20PM (#11764687)
Oh, that's me. I'm a mile wide and an inch deep. So I can do a lot of things, most of them not very well. My niche friends are much better than I am at anything I can do, but I can do a lot more things.

It's worked out kind of weird, pushing me (after a long career) into being a founder, and building a tool for generalizing common problems in systems integration. :) My desire to wear lots of hats finally works! But really? I'm more or less a specialist at being a generalist. And I've learned not to chase shiny new tools, because they're very distracting.

Re:Programmers are not different, they need simple UIs by fapjacks on Tuesday May 24, 2016 @06:02PM (#11765890)
I'm the same way! I try to get good at something, and then immediately move on. I am the best at nothing, and better than almost no one. But I am the only person I know that can write code, swordfight, surf, use a ham radio, play a handful of instruments, build things out of electronics, draw and paint, shoot, blacksmith, and blow glass (all at the same time -- just kidding)! I make myself very happy by being able to try something and then practicing until I get "good" in my own opinion. It's absolutely true that up against pros I am pretty terrible! I have also come to understand over the years that this is a byproduct of having a hacker mentality. I am loathe to use that word in reference to anything I am or anything I do, but that's just what I see. Hackers are curious creatures, and so it follows that they can do a lot of things.
Re:Programmers are not different, they need simple UIs by Retric on Tuesday May 24, 2016 @06:47PM (#11766187)
It's often really hard to judge how skilled you are at something. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect is overblown, but being able to say do a crappy weld in 4 hours that a competent person can do better in 15 minutes is often just dangerous. Many a handyman has caused 20,000+$ worth of damages or gotten someone injured.

That said, hobbies don't need to be productive and half assing something is often good enough. Yes, a simple wedge doorstop may damage the door, but well sometimes that's just not an issue.

Re:Programmers are not different, they need simple UIs by fapjacks on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @04:02AM (#11768322)
Did you mean to reply to my post?
Re:Programmers are not different, they need simple UIs by ultramancool on Tuesday May 24, 2016 @03:17PM (#11764655)
This is the direction I try to take. Every time I hear about a new technology I go and read the basics of it and try to understand where I might use it. Then when an opportunity comes up, I investigate and see if it's truly applicable and worth learning. In my experience, trying to dive right in to something you don't have a relatively immediate use for tends to produce a lot of wasted time and make learning slower and harder given the lack of direction.
Re:Programmers are not different, they need simple UIs by dredmorbius on Tuesday May 24, 2016 @03:16PM (#11764652)
My suspicion is that the answer is "learning isn't doing".

These are two different functional modes. The mastery of acting without conscious thought is very hard to attain. See also flow (Cziczentmihaly) and related topics.

Learning incrementally can help, and I'd structured my own career such that I was doing that. I ultimately opted out of it when that stopped being an option. I was simply spending all my time catching up, and not finding myself (nor, to a very large extent, any of my peers) actually proficient with the New Hawtness.

Re:Programmers are not different, they need simple UIs by beat on Tuesday May 24, 2016 @04:11PM (#11765094)
I've been in the industry 20+ years. The only technologies I've used consistently are Unix, and relational databases. The languages I work with, the frameworks, all of that stuff is new since I started, long ago. So yes, you have to keep learning.

But that doesn't mean you have to live on the bleeding edge, either! A tech that is proven out, used widely and stable, that's worth investing time to learn. In Crossing the Chasm terms (great book on marketing!), you need to learn early majority tech, not early adopter tech. You can be an early adopter for kicks, of course, but don't pretend it's to be more valuable.

Re:Programmers are not different, they need simple UIs by dredmorbius on Tuesday May 24, 2016 @06:42PM (#11766148)
Fair point, though many of the tools I've used tended toward evolutionary development. Came a point a bunch of stuff was being binned and/or wall-flung pasta-style.
Re:Programmers are not different, they need simple UIs by nightski on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @05:05AM (#11768530)
Maybe you just aren't very good at picking languages? No offense but I have been using C, C++, C#, Python, and JavaScript for what - almost 15-20 years now?
Re:Programmers are not different, they need simple UIs by beat on Wednesday May 25, 2016 @10:27AM (#11769978)
More I hop jobs a lot. I was using C at the beginning of my career. Lately, I'm using C again (and more importantly, using arcane C skills that no one has anymore, doing a 32-64 bit port). I picked up Java in 2001. I've done a fair bit of Ruby, too. Doing Python in the current gig, which is mostly new to me but trivial to learn.

The point is, I haven't had to deal with C for a long time. It's odd to be doing it again.

Re:Programmers are not different, they need simple UIs by Retric on Tuesday May 24, 2016 @03:44PM (#11764895)
The problem is you get stuck as a Junior developer in skill set if not job role. We regularly get collage interns who can often get productive in new technology in around 2 weeks of effort just like senior developers. It's the curse of specialization that the more people who can and will do something the less that thing pays.
Re:Programmers are not different, they need simple UIs by jmagoon on Tuesday May 24, 2016 @03:44PM (#11764893)
If you were a college professor, you would generally spend most of your time reading, researching, and _synthesizing_ learning into digestible information for others. Your ability to do new and groundbreaking things would be based partially on the mastery of a discipline and partially on the ability to be constantly exposed to and challenged by new ideas.

I don't think programmers are more like professors than artists, or vice versa. These are just two different modalities applicable within the large, varied landscape that is computer engineering.

Re:Programmers are not different, they need simple UIs by grey-area on Tuesday May 24, 2016 @03:29PM (#11764758)
Leonardo, Michelangelo, Picasso, Mozart, Cezanne, Bach, Rembrandt, Goya - none of these artists stuck to one instrument or medium, most were masters of many and all experimented freely. Your thesis does not hold true for many great artists I can think of.
Re:Programmers are not different, they need simple UIs by tanker on Tuesday May 24, 2016 @04:11PM (#11765093)
True, but then they are the all-time greats for a reason.
Re:Programmers are not different, they need simple UIs by fucking_tragedy on Tuesday May 24, 2016 @04:30PM (#11765221)
Some people that grew up being told that they were smart tend to think of themselves as that kind of master polymath type and end up ignoring that detail.
Re:Programmers are not different, they need simple UIs by msutherl on Tuesday May 24, 2016 @10:48PM (#11767351)
Most successful artists in my generation are media-agnostic and work fluidly between sculpture, installation, image-making, digital, video, and sound as media.