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Re:Google Home by amelius on Wednesday May 18, 2016 @04:29PM (#11725621)
But do you think that free software can keep up against these giants? In the near future, it will all be about having large amounts of data, and processing power; it will be less and less about the actual algorithms.

I'm afraid the only way out will be to rethink the economy.

Re:Google Home by scalio on Thursday May 19, 2016 @04:10AM (#11728746)
I think a neat solution is home-serving. A little box with big storage which acts as a hub for your family's digital life. It relays all your devices, gathers all info they're spitting out, and works on it. Results are fed back to the UIs.

When you're out and about, your devices tunnel home automatically, knowing the endpoint is trustworthy (which is more than can be said about traditional VPNs). All your photos, tweets, posts, and all other brain farts straying into the open world are never sent out directly by the device they were produced on, but by the server at home instead.

Tor could finally work as intended, with millions of boxes in the network, all handling each other's traffic. Add new projects like IPFS, and the whole centralised cloud bullshit starts to crumble. Not just from a privacy pov, but features. Your home box talking to the neighbours' home boxes by itself is a whole lot more powerful than all parties meeting on some obscure server somewhere, although I find myself quickly coming back to privacy when thinking about advantages. I do hope there is room for other big features, otherwise getting this box into peoples' hands will prove difficult.

I see it as a kind of decentralised centralisation: your whole digital life is based on this one machine, but it's in your home, you own it, and you can do with it whatever the heck you want. No ads (!), no monetization of your private data, which stays in your hands at all times, except of course once you share. Still, then it will be in the hands of those you shared it with, and hopefully not huge corporations with little incentive to do no evil (who the hell thought this was an appropriate company motto?).

Most everything for which we turn to Google and Facebook can be done much more privately at home (office things, communication, sharing shit...), except maybe search. I have little problem in keeping Google as a search machine (they do a great job) once they stop waiting for me at every. single. corner, and following me around the bits inbetween. Decentralised search is hard, but I'm fairly optimistic once a basis is laid out, someone smart takes on the challenge (and is able to solve it, too!).

Regarding your last sentence, rethinking our economy isn't a bad idea in any case. Capitalism is fundamentally unfit to be a fair system, and if a socially fair system is what we want, we have to get rid of some ideas (like this infinite growth nonsense, or that education is obsolete. Education, in whatever shape or form, is the only way I know of how humanity is not going to spiral to its (intellectual) death).

Re:Google Home by mbrock on Thursday May 19, 2016 @07:53AM (#11729467)
Search is cool, but Google-style universal search might be a bit overrated.

Google still relies on institutions to provide data in indexable form, and those institutions build their reputations in ways that only partially rely on Google traffic.

I mean, a competent librarian has a kind of expertise that Google's algorithms don't, so that's one situation to explore for a post-Google idea of finding information (of course it's also pre-Google).

The social aspect of information discovery is something that Google and Facebook are kind of fighting over, but fundamentally it doesn't belong to them—it belongs to "us" intrinsically.

They shut down Google Reader but they can't shut down the human tendency to share information!

And the panopticon information provided by Google is often just a mesmerizing massive overload with no curation, weight, intelligence...

Wikipedia is the top hit for so many searches that one could see Google as an interface for it. Add Wikivoyage/Wikitravel, some other community wikis, API interfaces a la DuckDuckGo, social curation, etc, and you might find that the value of Google Search is actually not that incredible.

Re:Google Home by scalio on Thursday May 19, 2016 @01:33PM (#11731966)
Yes, google certainly isn't the best we can do in terms of finding stuff, but I think the sheer amount of data they're gathering enables the algorithms to appear more intelligent than they really are by processing more instead of better (as you say, there is little to no curation going on).

This is one of the main reasons I think home serving is a great idea. It enables people with some interest in one another to connect directly, one-to-one, instead of running around in some third party's server. This opens possibilities for exchange and networking on a very personal basis that we don't have today mostly because of privacy concerns (virtual neighbourhoods and the like).

Re:Google Home by na85 on Thursday May 19, 2016 @11:20PM (#11735376)
>Tor could finally work as intended, with millions of boxes in the network, all handling each other's traffic.

Ultimately you'll never escape the fundamental flaw of Tor, which is that I, as a moderate bandwidth user, don't want to subsidize some leech's desire to download weird fetish porn in 4K with my connection.

I live in Canada where the scumbag broadband companies all collude to keep prices exorbitantly high, and I pay a lot of money for what would be considered bottom-tier garbage service in e.g. South Korea.

I don't run Tor because ultimately I want to use the bandwidth I pay for.

Re:Google Home by extropic-engine on Friday May 20, 2016 @06:56PM (#11742193)
That doesn't sound like a fundamental flaw of Tor. That sounds like a fundamental flaw of broadband companies in Canada.
Re:Google Home by dandelion_lover on Friday May 20, 2016 @10:05AM (#11737843)
>Decentralised search is hard, but I'm fairly optimistic once a basis is laid out, someone smart takes on the challenge (and is able to solve it, too!).

Check out http://yacy.net, you may be surprised!

Re:Google Home by reitanqild on Wednesday May 18, 2016 @05:02PM (#11725937)
> In the near future, it will all be about having large amounts of data, and processing power;

I don't think we are even close to the limits if what we can reach with standard desktop and server software.

Re:Google Home by TeMPOraL on Wednesday May 18, 2016 @06:17PM (#11726462)
I agree. The current trend of outsourcing everything to "the cloud" is partially fashion, partially laziness, and mostly dictated by business models - why do something the right way (from engineering point of view), when you can lock your users up in your own garden and extract rent (either directly, or by spamming them with ads and selling their data)?

Our devices have incredible amount of computing power now - a great untapped potential that we could use for something else than for supporting unnecessary indirection layers.

Re:Google Home by chongli on Wednesday May 18, 2016 @08:29PM (#11727113)
The problem is that our devices are locked up behind NAT routers and IPv6 is starting to resemble fusion power in terms of its ETA.

The future of all of our devices having extremely fast connections existing in a world of amazing, free, peer-to-peer applications still seems so far away.

Re:Google Home by TeMPOraL on Wednesday May 18, 2016 @09:14PM (#11727248)
Sadly so. Few years ago I thought we'd all be on IPv6 by now.

BTW just today I was thinking about IPv6 VPNs. Seems like a good way to extend one's Intranet of Things to one's mobile devices.

Re:Google Home by reitanqild on Thursday May 19, 2016 @12:05AM (#11727882)
FWIW it seems ipv6 is working (for some definition of working) at my house now :-)
Re:Google Home by wwwdonohue on Wednesday May 18, 2016 @08:21PM (#11727080)
"Business models" are why your devices have such incredible computing power too.
Re:Google Home by TeMPOraL on Wednesday May 18, 2016 @09:10PM (#11727237)
I agree. But business models are not created equal. Personally, I'd like more of those giving useful technology and less of those that are artificially limiting it.
Re:Google Home by incongruity on Wednesday May 18, 2016 @09:25PM (#11727296)
Well - it's their business and not your model :-)

The challenge is how do we make it economically viable for both the producer of the technology and the end user to keep it useful and local, while also making it a good user experience?

The thing about cloud-based services is that they leverage scale well, making many things cheaper than they ever could be locally unless you buy a device and use it for long time AND fixes can be rolled out quickly with no lagging install base to cause problems or bad user experiences.

I really do want to have my privacy and keep my data safe but I also recognize that's hard to do without higher cost or more hassle (or both).

Re:Google Home by wowtip on Thursday May 19, 2016 @05:27AM (#11728970)
- Security

- Reasonable cost

- Availability

- Ease of use, especially setup

- Eye candy

- Social connections

If you can check all of those for an FOSS solution, then I think you are home. Unfortunately most of the points are still not available for average Joe users with FOSS.

Add to that, most people will give you a blank look when you start discussing how companies own your data, and even those who understand just shrug and go the route of least resistance.

Re:Google Home by mbrock on Thursday May 19, 2016 @07:45AM (#11729436)
It's also worth building networks of free systems even if they aren't immediately friendly for Mr Average Joe, simply to create and maintain a foundation for the future. I believe this is part of the strategy of the Free Software Foundation, which recognizes explicitly that free software often will lack some attractive qualities of proprietary software.
Re:Google Home by reitanqild on Thursday May 19, 2016 @06:45AM (#11729225)
This is more or less what I actually mean:

We have a long way to go with all of the above points before we need megaclouds with asic and huge data *to move the state of art forward.

All of the above be solved without creating a new unicorn startup.

Re:Google Home by madmax96 on Thursday May 19, 2016 @11:36AM (#11730999)
While I agree with your assessment, there is an engineering advantage to the cloud: you don't have to deal with as many different system configurations, some of which result in a broken application and an angry customer. The functional package manager approach (like Guix) seems to solve this problem.
Re:Google Home by mbrock on Wednesday May 18, 2016 @04:47PM (#11725800)
It's an interesting question. Of course there are advantages to having these huge proprietary data volume, so I'm thinking along the lines of, how can we make useful software with the benefits we want, without relying on this kind of proprietary collection? Maybe there are alternate paths that even have their own technical or social or aesthetic benefits? Well, it's a question for the next decades, I think...
Re:Google Home by visarga on Thursday May 19, 2016 @10:26AM (#11730435)
> In the near future, it will all be about having large amounts of data, and processing power;

Deep Learning doesn't actually require "Big Data". They went from thousands of examples to millions or billions, but we can scrape that kind of data with open source tools, record with cheap cameras, sensors, etc.

Also, there is a lot of research into scaling big models to small hardware. We can run pretty decent AI on cell phones and small systems.

Third, the AI academic research community is pretty open and posts everything, often including code and datasets. This enables rapid progress, but essentially, it brings knowledge in the public domain. We need that to continue in order to have access to the best algorithms.

It will be much easier than you think to have open source implementations of the best AI tools.

Re:Google Home by Gustomaximus on Wednesday May 18, 2016 @07:36PM (#11726897)
Its a valid point but the world can adapt. One off-the-cuff example, perhaps FOIA will move to a real-time request enviroment where I can offer permission to use my data to small company A and large companies A, B & C have to give direct access to their database about me via API so the information gap is leveled. If Small company A can get enough sign-ups they have access to large amounts of information.
Re:Google Home by joesmo on Thursday May 19, 2016 @12:56AM (#11728081)
Yes. If one guy can build a self driving car in his garage, I'm certain free software can keep up. (http://www.bloomberg.com/features/2015-george-hotz-self-driv...)
Re:Google Home by EGreg on Wednesday May 18, 2016 @08:39PM (#11727148)
Large amounts of data can also be open sourced, and aggregated. What's large today will be average tomorrow.
Re:Google Home by Sir_Substance on Thursday May 19, 2016 @05:25AM (#11728968)
>But do you think that free software can keep up against these giants?

On an algorithmic front, definitely. The key areas where free software is kneecapped against large corporate interests are in marketing, which free software has never been good at, and in training set gathering.

In the case of the latter, google, facebook and microsoft have a major advantage in gathering data to do things like improve accent recognition, because they don't give a shit about collecting everything you say via services like cortana to improve their voice recognition, as long as it's legal. That technique applies to a whole suite of other problems as well, unfortunately.

Re:Google Home by Thimothy on Thursday May 19, 2016 @05:34AM (#11729000)
Don't forget UI and UX, in general. The free software pipeline has traditionally been wacky in this front, and is something that matters a lot to users.
Re:Google Home by digi_owl on Thursday May 19, 2016 @09:59AM (#11730209)
I think the whole UX thing is overrated. People will like what they are accustomed to, and dislike what they are not accustomed to. Just look at all the flak Facebook gets when they move things around.
Re:Google Home by mbrock on Thursday May 19, 2016 @10:01AM (#11730227)
Or look at medical secretaries and their opinions about the new "user friendly" interfaces that replaced the keyboard driven programs of previous generations.
Re:Google Home by digi_owl on Thursday May 19, 2016 @12:33PM (#11731426)
Similar for store clerks.

Supposedly there are doctors in Norway still holding on to their DOS based patient journal software. Arguably because they can operate it without taking the focus way from the conversation with the patient.

Re:Google Home by cavilatrest on Thursday May 19, 2016 @12:58PM (#11731624)
Right but there's a level of lock-in and lack of change in enterprise environments that doesn't exist in consumer tech.
Re:Google Home by api on Wednesday May 18, 2016 @08:22PM (#11727090)
Another way out is to divorce free "as in beer" from free "as in freedom" and start charging for freedom-enhancing software. Find an economic model that works.
Re:Google Home by EGreg on Wednesday May 18, 2016 @08:40PM (#11727151)
Why not call it "liberating software". Sounds more positive and is more accurate!!
Re:Google Home by Joof on Wednesday May 18, 2016 @06:58PM (#11726692)
AFAIK it's fairly difficult to combine many machine learning models (although boosting is a thing). I'm a noob though.

We could do live online or batch training of models in a distributed manner if it is feasible. It would take more time to build new models because we would have to produce more data, but it's an idea.

For my personal use, free software has always been high enough quality; its at least 90% of the way there if not better. And I can trust it.

Re:Google Home by eva1984 on Wednesday May 18, 2016 @10:30PM (#11727546)
Maybe we need an open data initiative.
Re:Google Home by tuukkah on Thursday May 19, 2016 @01:09AM (#11728133)