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Re:Facebook relies on editors' judgment for trending news fe... by at-fates-hands on Thursday May 12, 2016 @04:27PM (#11686513)
This is probably the worst fucking argument I've ever heard. If you're dismissing Fox News as being biased, then you need to eject all the rest of the MSM coverage too; because they're equally biased if not worse. Fuck, MSNBC doesn't even try and hide the fact they're on the Democratic team, it's practically their own propaganda tool for God's sake.

I'll gladly take a little news from a source that's not obviously pitching me the Democratic talking points night in and night out.

Re:Facebook relies on editors' judgment for trending news fe... by scholia on Thursday May 12, 2016 @04:57PM (#11686733)
If you check Politifact http://www.politifact.com/ you'll find that most of what Clinton says is mostly true, whereas practically everything Trump says is mostly false.

Fox, like Trump, doesn't feel the need to tell the truth. MSM (1) generally does.

(1) For Facebook, MSM means: "BBC News, CNN, Fox News, The Guardian, NBC News, The New York Times, USA Today, The Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, Yahoo News or Yahoo."

Re:Facebook relies on editors' judgment for trending news fe... by rdancer on Thursday May 12, 2016 @05:56PM (#11687086)
Politifact's parent organization, Tampa Bay Times, is part of the MSM, and not a third-party watchdog. It is incredible that they have brought fact-checking into the mainstream, but their ability to have done that is at least in part thanks to their being a part of it. Anyway, they don't provide stats grouped by people (EDIT: they do, my bad!).

Fact-checking cannot provide the kind of metric you talk about for rhetorical devices that are not drily descriptive, such as irony, hyperbole, allusion, etc. It helps that the readers have a way to look up the facts if they don't know them, but the analyses need to be read critically, same as the original statements. It's no good if you distrust one set of people and uncritically trust another. On what basis? You don't trust the politician, that's good. You don't trust some media, that's also good. But whoever in the media you choose, don't trust them blindly, they are just normal people, not superheroes.

Take, for example, this statement: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/may/... There is no clear-cut right or wrong. Same-day voter registration puts a pressure on the bureaucracy to be more forgiving and less thorough; that's a fact. But is that driven by the political elements who benefit from illegals voting, and do people on either side actually believe that it has an effect? That's not a factual question, that's a question for a political debate. Mr Trump's hyperbole captures this with a surprising pith.

Re:Facebook relies on editors' judgment for trending news fe... by scholia on Thursday May 12, 2016 @06:23PM (#11687271)
> Anyway, they don't provide stats grouped by people, so that assertion is based on what?

The certainly do. You can see that Trump is telling the truth 2% of the time and is mostly true only 6%. Most of his claims are not true. http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/

For comparison, Hillary Clinton rates true (23%) or mostly true (27%) http://www.politifact.com/personalities/hillary-clinton/

> There is no clear-cut right or wrong.

Trump's claim was analyzed. Independent experts were consulted. It's obvious why the ruling went against him.

I don't think distinguishing between hyperbole and lies is Politifact's problem. It's simply calling a lie a lie.

I appreciate that Trump tells lies for political advantage, and that most politicians do the same. However, Trump is in a different league from Clinton, just as the NYT is in a different league from Fox News.

Re:Facebook relies on editors' judgment for trending news fe... by rdancer on Thursday May 12, 2016 @06:43PM (#11687381)
My bad; I've edited my comment above accordingly.

> Trump's claim was analyzed. Independent experts were consulted. It's obvious why the ruling went against him.

> I don't think distinguishing between hyperbole and lies is Politifact's problem. It's simply calling a lie a lie.

When I was growing up in the Eastern Bloc, we looked up to the U.S. for their people's ability to think critically and to have their own informed political opinions. I am horrified at your implying that you outsource your thinking. We used to say, "experts were consulted", "it's obvious", "the ruling went against him". That's totalitarian language, describing a totalitarian concept. Why would you throw away your freedom of thought, willingly to boot?

Let me invite you to analyse that statement by Mr Trump and its analysis by Politfact and my comment above. What is your opinion? Can you give good arguments for it, and anticipate counter-arguments against it?

Re:Facebook relies on editors' judgment for trending news fe... by scholia on Thursday May 12, 2016 @09:04PM (#11687937)
Nobody is throwing away their freedom of thought, and consulting independent experts is what journalists do. That's how we work (source: I am one).

> we looked up to the U.S. for their people's ability to think critically and to have their own informed political opinions.

Don't confuse opinions with facts. Opinions are personal and facts are (as far as possible) universal.

However, I'm unlikely to have a good opinion of someone who says too many things that are factually untrue, which is the case with Trump and Cruz.

> When I was growing up in the Eastern Bloc

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Eastern Bloc had rulers who could say things that weren't true and not have those things exposed as lies by the MSM. That's why we fact-check both Trump and Clinton. That's what democracy is based on.

> "the ruling went against him". That's totalitarian language, describing a totalitarian concept.

No it isn't. There's absolutely nothing totalitarian about it. It's exactly the reverse.

On the evidence presented by Politifact, what Trump said wasn't true. If you want to dispute that, you have to disprove the existing information or find more information that contradicts it.

Merely having an opinion about it adds nothing: it's not worth a damn.

Re:Facebook relies on editors' judgment for trending news fe... by rdancer on Friday May 13, 2016 @01:43PM (#11691905)
This is not complicated. My opinion (the statement nicely sums up a defensible political position, and the Tampa Bay Times' assessment is wrong) is based on the facts they brought to the fore, as well as a few of my own — as any argument would be —, but I also show my own reasoning:

Same-day voter registration puts a pressure on the bureaucracy to be more forgiving and less thorough; that's a fact. But is that driven by the political elements who benefit from illegals voting, and do people on either side actually believe that it has an effect? That's not a factual question, that's a question for a political debate. Mr Trump's hyperbole captures this with a surprising pith.

Politifact [...] is [...] not a[n independent] third-party watchdog. [... Further, f]act-checking cannot provide [data about speakers' telling the truth] for [statements using] hyperbole [...].

Your overarching position seems to be that this stuff is too complicated for you to reason about on your own, and you need to rely on other (presumably qualified) people to do some of your analysis (I disagree); Politifact provides a good unbiased, trustworthy, well-sourced, and most importantly impartial set of facts (I disagree); and the candidates that have the most fraught relationship with truth just happen to be those who you oppose politically (we may agree on that one). That's, I believe, at the core of a big problem with American journalism: the intellectual trepidation to analyse facts independently, based on all available evidence, and present a conclusion that is one's own; in a word, the pretence that a journalist can escape bias by simply choosing between what others are saying, without ever directly challenging their reasoning or assumptions.

That is not really important: all I'm asking of you is to present, preferably without swearing, your own reasoning for why you think Mr Trump gave anything but an honest answer on this particular occasion?

Re:Facebook relies on editors' judgment for trending news fe... by scholia on Friday May 13, 2016 @03:40PM (#11692741)
> Your overarching position seems to be that this stuff is too complicated for you to reason about on your own

Now you're just being stupid. And insulting.

> preferably without swearing

Since I've shown no propensity to swear so far, I take it you feel your message is patronizing enough to prompt a swearing response?

Re:Facebook relies on editors' judgment for trending news fe... by dang on Monday May 16, 2016 @04:39AM (#11705020)
Both of you broke the HN guidelines badly in this trainwreck of a political flamewar. Please don't do this kind of thing on HN again.
Re:Facebook relies on editors' judgment for trending news fe... by protomyth on Thursday May 12, 2016 @05:15PM (#11686841)
Politifact isn't seen as nonpartisan. The Tampa Bay Times is the parent org and they have not endorsed any Republican candidates for President. They are a liberal newspaper and that is reflected in their fact assessments.
Re:Facebook relies on editors' judgment for trending news fe... by jonathankoren on Thursday May 12, 2016 @06:15PM (#11687236)
Well, reality has a well known liberal bias.
Re:Facebook relies on editors' judgment for trending news fe... by rdancer on Thursday May 12, 2016 @06:29PM (#11687315)
If that were so, would liberal arguments need to turn to unsourced verisimilitudes?
Re:Facebook relies on editors' judgment for trending news fe... by avatar299 on Thursday May 12, 2016 @05:31PM (#11686921)
Politifact is not a neutral source. They might as well be ran by the DNC
Re:Facebook relies on editors' judgment for trending news fe... by scholia on Thursday May 12, 2016 @06:31PM (#11687333)
Seems to be a reliable source, or it wouldn't be so widely quoted or so widely respected. It's actually a story if it gets something wrong... http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politifact-is-wrong-cruz-i...
Re:Facebook relies on editors' judgment for trending news fe... by nommm-nommm on Thursday May 12, 2016 @10:17PM (#11688202)
One can be correct and biased at the same time.
Re:Facebook relies on editors' judgment for trending news fe... by scholia on Friday May 13, 2016 @06:42AM (#11689605)
One can be correct and have an opinion at the same time. They're not the same thing.

Even if you don't agree with an opinion, that doesn't make it wrong. You may be even more biased the other way.

If you are not correct, then your opinion is not worth very much. See: birthers, anti-vaxxers, chemtrails, intelligent design, faked moon landing conspiracists etc.

Re:Facebook relies on editors' judgment for trending news fe... by snsr on Thursday May 12, 2016 @05:23PM (#11686880)
So you take a little news from a network founded specifically to promote Republican ideals and viewpoints?
Re:Facebook relies on editors' judgment for trending news fe... by at-fates-hands on Thursday May 12, 2016 @06:38PM (#11687365)
Yes, and then take some news from networks founded specifically to promote Democratic ideals and viewpoints and draw my own conclusions.

Something far more meaningful than people I know who simply dismiss Fox News since they are right leaning. I'm actually surprised how many stories end up on Fox News that's never reported in the MSM.

If you're going to be myopic in how you get your news, why should I be surprised your views are just as narrow as the sources you get them from??

Re:Facebook relies on editors' judgment for trending news fe... by rdancer on Thursday May 12, 2016 @07:27PM (#11687540)
That would apply if there were honest, inevitable biases, and the journalists and editors were striving for integrity. However, in a situation where they are at best not very good, and at worst they are trying to manipulate the public opinion en masse, how can you use that kind of data? Isn't it garbage in, garbage out, no matter what your process of synthesis may be?

In the good old days of the Soviet Union, we could "read between the lines", because the censorship system was not very effective, and the journalists were pissed off. But we still failed horribly at understanding what the world looked like west of the border, and imagined capitalism was some lesser form of paradise, and were quite surprised when we had to start living it.

Personally, I am weary of reading people who I know try to manipulate me. I always suspect if they try hard enough and long enough, they may succeed. What is your method, and does it work?