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Re:The long-term effects of ugly political discussions on Fa... by chatmasta on Monday May 02, 2016 @11:59PM (#11617817)
The problem with political discussion on Facebook is the problem that has always existed with political discussion. Facebook just amplifies it x100. People simplify political rhetoric to fit it into a finite number of "camps": Democrat/republican, liberal/conservative, "SJW"/anti-PC, feminist/mysoginist...

The simplified rhetoric pigeonholes issues into bipolar ideological frameworks. As a result, political "discussion" does not reflect the reality of complex networks of opinions, people, and ideas. Instead, it reflects a shallow mask of "us" and "them." Nuanced, rational discussion does not stand a chance against the uncontrollable biases of ingroup/outgroup psychology.

Once someone forms an opinion, and finds validation of it from within a group, they have joined the ingroup. At that point, it will be nearly impossible to move them to the outgroup. Hearing any opinions from the outgroup will only drive them further into the ingroup, as they retreat to the echo chamber of their peers and emotionally reconfirm their own beliefs instead of critically engaging opposing viewpoints.

Of course, I'm mostly talking about the "ingroup" of "feminists and SJWs" (I hate that acronym because it seems hypocritical to criticize SJWs for reductionism and then give them an acronym). Right now the "regressive left" is certainly the most guilty of seeking affirmation from ingroup dynamics, and the group most unwilling to engage with the opposition.

However, I think every single human is subject to the same biases of ingroup/outgroup psychology. The "SJW" group is only the most recent example of a group whose opinions are pigeonholed, amplified, and ultimately opposed. But many of the people crusading against political correctness are guilty of the same unwillingness to consider the other side.

This dynamic has always existed, as long as humans have been a social species. It's how society evolves. But it sure is messy.

(visualization of the political polarization in congress: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/04/23/a-stu...)

Re:The long-term effects of ugly political discussions on Fa... by DanielBMarkham on Tuesday May 03, 2016 @02:56AM (#11618494)
I'm very happy to have friends about evenly split between left and right, with a nice chunk of folks from various countries.

I'm going to make a political observation, so apologies.

I grew up in the south. I know a lot of bible-belt conservatives. I know the feeling of being embarrassed when somebody you like says something ignorant and trivializes a complex issue. It makes you want to wince.

As a third-party guy now, I'm feeling that same embarrassment for my left-wing friends. My right-wingers just shut up: perhaps they have some other site they go to and vent. Who knows? But my friends on the left, at least some of them, are insufferable. Most of the few people I've muted were on the left, posting multiple times per day from political sites, going on at length about how they hate various right-wing group X. With a couple of folks, it's to the point that I suspect mental illness.

So much of what I see on FB that qualifies as politics from all of my friends is just simple virtue signaling. It's taking 3 seconds and cross-posting an idiotic and over-simplified argument or attack against other folks simply because it's easy to do that and it lets folks publicly know that you're one of the "right people" (It's actually a form of bragging)

Facebook is a great way to have an ongoing family newsletter. It sucks as a tool for reasoned political discourse.

Re:The long-term effects of ugly political discussions on Fa... by SyneRyder on Tuesday May 03, 2016 @06:49AM (#11619430)
"My right-wingers just shut up: perhaps they have some other site they go to and vent. Who knows?"

That question fascinates me, as I've heard it before from my left-friends. As far as I know, most of my right-friends don't have a site they go to, or commentators they follow. They just do their own thing, and politics isn't as central to their identity or lives. They value doing things, where my left-leaning friends seem to value interesting conversation & debate.

In Australia, we had a political commentator called Andrew Bolt, who I guess is like Australia's Fox News. But the only people I've ever heard watching his show were politically-left friends, who seemed to enjoy being offended & outraged at what was said, and debating it with their friends. They seemed convinced that's what right-leaning people watch, but my right-leaning friends can't be bothered with it, or most TV / newspaper discourse.

Re:The long-term effects of ugly political discussions on Fa... by DanielBMarkham on Tuesday May 03, 2016 @07:02AM (#11619494)
Fascinating.

A year or two ago, I added the first newspaper editor I worked for, way back in the 80s. I didn't remember much about the guy, except he was smart, nice, and gave me a break. (I went from freelance writer to tech guy)

Once we were friends on FB? Holy cow. This man was a committed communist, seemed to hate the culture he was living in, and every day was posting the most provocative stuff. (I am fine with whatever opinions you want to hold. It's just odd to have the editor of the local business magazine declare his support for communism.)

I commented a time or two -- I got sucked in. Then I realized that this was only a sad, lonely plea for attention. He could use Facebook to tweak people, and as long as they responded, angry or not, he got engagement.

He's one of those I muted.

Contrast this to another friend, whom I had also lost touch with. Turns out he is a local businessperson and conservative.

Heck, I hardly ever hear from him. Maybe a post or two every month. It's usually bland or jocular in nature.

I guess if you're engaged in some traditional local social organization, you might lean to the right. You might also have a lot of opportunities to chat outside of the internet. If, however, you're engaged in more progressive, national social organizations, you might lean to the left. You might also view the internet as a means to stay motivated and help motivate others.

Re:The long-term effects of ugly political discussions on Fa... by Unklejoe on Tuesday May 03, 2016 @12:12AM (#11617859)
This is one of the fundamental problems with politics today. The quantization of opinions into discrete "groups" has been happening forever, but I really think we're at an all time high now.

The system seems to be the most divided it's ever been.

Presidential candidates are forced to align themselves with their respective groups.

It's a shame really. Were probably missing out on a lot of good ideas from candidates who are afraid to offend their base and think outside the box.

You can't be a pro-choice republican, etc.

Re:The long-term effects of ugly political discussions on Fa... by jalami on Tuesday May 03, 2016 @02:29AM (#11618376)
The human brain will be as mentally lazy as it can be. If the computer mouse hadn't hit the scene as it did, we'd all know all these cool keyboard shortcuts to get around everything and would be much more efficient. If you use VIM/emacs its because you needed it or actively pushed yourself to learn it. I feel the same dedication is needed to avoid subconscious lethargy.

Group think, stereotypes, reductionism, compartmentalization. All of this makes it easy to make decisions, tough ones, without thinking hard or stepping out of our comfort zone. Even better, we get social recognition and adoration if we use the mental training wheels, isolation if we publicly don't.

We need, as a society, to avoid mental laziness in order to fix this problem. Sadly, it's built-in, easy and everyone's doing it.

PS. Not strictly saying computer mouse use is the fast-food of ui navigation. Just a metaphor.

Re:The long-term effects of ugly political discussions on Fa... by losteric on Tuesday May 03, 2016 @12:38AM (#11617952)
Our two-party system really doesn't help with the "in or out" mentality either... it's completely permeated our 24/7 media culture and encourages dangerously binary thinking. I wouldn't be surprised to see the system break apart in a couple more years of these increasingly vicious primaries.
Re:The long-term effects of ugly political discussions on Fa... by Unklejoe on Tuesday May 03, 2016 @08:34AM (#11619967)
Yeah, I can see that happening soon to be honest.

If Donald Trump doesn't win at the contested convention (if there is one), I wouldn't be surprised if the entire party split.

The same goes for the Bernie Sanders supporters (if Hillary wins the dem. nomination, which she will), but to a lesser extent. There are many Bernie supporters who see Hillary as the same kind of person as Donald Trump, and would never vote for her.

This election is going to be interesting.

I bet the voter turn out will be similar, but I also bet that the actual people who are voting will be different. There are many people who simply won't vote, and there are also many people who are voting for the first time.

Re:The long-term effects of ugly political discussions on Fa... by qrendel on Tuesday May 03, 2016 @01:54AM (#11618260)
Most political views for most people are used as a signal of tribal identification, rather than as an actual opinion on what the best policy option would be. See: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anything... (long, but worth it)

The camps are essentially a feature, not a bug - though probably not a good feature. The majority of political posts exist to reinforce that tribal identity, sending up a signal and hoping you get some back.

Actual discussion about alternative policy options and their consequences is a small-time hobby most people don't care to partake in. The adversarial behaviors re: "political discussion" make a lot more sense once you stop lumping both types of posts under that single label.

Re:The long-term effects of ugly political discussions on Fa... by guelo on Tuesday May 03, 2016 @12:25AM (#11617905)
WTF, you had me until the "SJW" group being the most guilty. My guess is that you're part of some ingroup that is polarized against the SJW group so it seems to you like it's the most extreme. But that's just typical polarized ingroup thinking.
Re:The long-term effects of ugly political discussions on Fa... by hueving on Tuesday May 03, 2016 @01:45AM (#11618222)
They easily fall into the most extreme category when it comes to online discourse. I've never seen a group more organized when it comes to brigading and propaganda about how to respond with essentially copy and paste replies to any category of response elicited to their arguments.

SJWs pushed out the CEO of Mozilla, made GitHub stop rewarding people based on the merit of their work, and pressured companies to hire under qualified minorities over other more qualified people[1]. Even if they don't have a strong presence in other industries, they have completely dominated tech companies to the point where people fear using a race or gender to describe how someone looks.

1. Assuming equal qualifications from each group, there will be more qualified non-minorities than minorities by definition.

Re:The long-term effects of ugly political discussions on Fa... by tomlock on Tuesday May 03, 2016 @01:51AM (#11618245)
I think SJWs would respond that meritocracy has always been an illusion in tech because people will still hire for "culture fit". And the predominant culture in tech companies, by survey and measurement, seems to be male. The idea that tech is "completely dominated" seems to fly in the face of those numbers - which I'm assuming you see SJWs as perceiving negatively at this point?
Re:The long-term effects of ugly political discussions on Fa... by chatmasta on Tuesday May 03, 2016 @12:27AM (#11617914)
That's why I included the paragraph after that, saying "every group is guilty of this." Yes, I include myself in that, and yes you are correct in your assessment of my polarization.
Re:The long-term effects of ugly political discussions on Fa... by Slothrop99 on Tuesday May 03, 2016 @01:21AM (#11618121)
I don't know about "most guilty", but when you have a group who first and foremost values intense self-critisism, they're going to be highly obnoxious on social media because of in-group signaling.

For myself, I don't engage on this stuff on social media. But my mother gets all riled up arguing with her "republican jerks" and "trumps" on facebook. But in the end they all go out and drink too much and have a grand old time. It's a different mentality.

Re:The long-term effects of ugly political discussions on Fa... by kmm on Tuesday May 03, 2016 @02:52PM (#11623223)
I don't know about the parent, but you'd guess that wrong about me. There are a ton of subreddits I sort of politically align with that I can't join because I don't align with their brand of feminism. Besides that, I think there's something wrong if you can get banned for using the word "bitch", even to describe a man or nobody at all, on a very non-serious sub. I've yet to meet someone with that opinion in real life

I personally have no interesting in aligning with an anti-SJW ingroup, because it seems like a waste of time, and they tend to attract people on the other kind of the spectrum, which isn't ideal either.

Re:The long-term effects of ugly political discussions on Fa... by venomsnake on Tuesday May 03, 2016 @02:07AM (#11618298)
The SJW are definitely the most vocal and annoying lately. Reading their posts makes you dream about the d eloquent communist debates in USSR plenums after the October revolution.

http://www.vox.com/2016/4/21/11451378/smug-american-liberali...

Re:The long-term effects of ugly political discussions on Fa... by jalami on Tuesday May 03, 2016 @01:57AM (#11618270)
I agree for the most part, not sure about your SJW rap, but the problem we have is lumping ideas/beliefs into groups and then defending those groups instead of the beleifs. The beliefs are sacrosanct because they happens to be in that group, not because they hold merit on their own. Often these beliefs are only mildly ideologically connected in the first place.

People regard these ideas as being like in kind if they're in the same group, but every party/religion/human construct is a motley assortment of dissimilar beliefs. They're just beliefs. Every belief should be held up to scrutiny.

I think understanding how to logically reason and knowing the human psychological traps that we all fall into help us avoid them. Things like being individually cognizant about the Bystander effect, Ingroups/outgroups and the Broken Window theory help me make informed decisions every day. I'm sure I fall into all kinds of logical antipatterns, and I want people to point them out, not simply nod, grimace or unfriend me.

Re:The long-term effects of ugly political discussions on Fa... by BrandonMarc on Tuesday May 03, 2016 @11:23PM (#11625929)
Fantastic visualization. Just at a glance, I think I can tell which of those dots is Joe Leiberman.