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Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by djsumdog on Monday May 02, 2016 @01:07PM (#11613276)
The person who is being held indefinitely for not giving up his password is really frightening. They should either let him go or charge him with contempt of course/obstruction and issue time served!

Even if you /know/ you don't have anything illegal on any of my encrypted devices, it's better to take a contempt of court charge than give up a password...because of what they might /find/ or possible things unrelated to an investigation that they can link to a crime (or what they can then plant).

Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by JoshTriplett on Monday May 02, 2016 @01:08PM (#11613293)
Contempt is a terrifying charge, because under current law, you can be jailed indefinitely for the same contempt charge for as long as you refuse to cooperate with whatever the court thinks you should cooperate with. There's no upper bound there. So that wouldn't solve the problem.
Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by CobrastanJorji on Monday May 02, 2016 @01:33PM (#11613564)
Contempt is a weird power in general, especially when it's used for reasons like "disrespecting the judge." If I am disrespectful to the governor of my state, or if I'm disrespectful to a police officer, or if I'm disrespectful to a fireman or a bailiff or a legislator or a district attorney or a teacher or the President, that is a thing that I can legally do. But for some reason it's not outrageous for a judge to send me to jail because I showed them insufficient respect.
Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by derefr on Monday May 02, 2016 @02:10PM (#11613901)
"Contempt of court" isn't supposed to refer to contempt of the judge, though. It's supposed to refer to contempt for the mechanism of a trial: not respecting the time or the (legally-required) duties of anyone there, basically making it impossible to go on with the work of the court system. A lawyer attempting to "filibuster" a jury into agreeing with them, for example, would be in contempt of court for wasting the jurors' time.

The "contempt of court" charge basically serves as a court-private time-out box to send people to whenever they can't handle being in court, until they learn to stop, erm, "blocking the cooperative event queue from pumping messages."

It's not that the charge has to be indefinite—but it has to be capable of sticking as long as the trial's progress is halted. The charge should definitely cease to apply if the trial manages to resume through some other route—and especially if it manages to conclude.

Remember, "contempt of court" isn't about malfeasance, either. Experts who lie on the stand are not in contempt. Lawyers who introduce non-cross-examined evidence are not in contempt. Random audience members getting up and saying things during court are not in contempt. It's only when one of these things causes the trial mechanism to grind to a halt, and then the person refuses to yield to let the trial resume, that they are in contempt. It's a process-control mechanism, and in that respect, it's quite necessary.

(That's not to say it can't be abused—especially in smaller courts in non-jury trials. But it has a well-defined good usage, and can't really be redefined without losing that usage.)

Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by stcredzero on Monday May 02, 2016 @02:29PM (#11614087)
But for some reason it's not outrageous for a judge to send me to jail because I showed them insufficient respect.

The rights of protest and speech cannot be the same in courts, even to the same degree as a place like congress or the offices of the executive. (And in those last two cases, the right of speech is also curtailed.) Otherwise, the courts wouldn't be able to function, particularly in the case of an adversarial court system.

As an analogy, years ago I was part of a small alliance in Eve that consistently won battles. But as we were winning, the server would crash and the devs would come in and roll-back the damage we had done.

The courts have a hard enough time as it is functioning. I am involved in a case against an assailant, and I learned that it's very typical for defense attorneys to purposely drag out cases to maximize victim fatigue. The defense attorney somehow has surgery scheduled on the hearing dates. A legal system is very complicated. It's likely to have more loopholes than a software system has bugs. And it's probably a lot harder and more time consuming to fix those.

This is why "contempt of court" exists.

Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by tptacek on Monday May 02, 2016 @02:04PM (#11613852)
Contempt is appealable, so it's not as if a single judge could ever detain someone indefinitely.
Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by kingkawn on Monday May 02, 2016 @02:16PM (#11613959)
How else can the court enforce that it is the final decision on disputes other than this? It is unfair, but seems like the logical place for unfairness to reside in such a system.
Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by JoshTriplett on Monday May 02, 2016 @09:00PM (#11617073)
> How else can the court enforce that it is the final decision on disputes other than this? It is unfair, but seems like the logical place for unfairness to reside in such a system.

Why would there need to be any place for unfairness to reside in a system?

Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by EGreg on Monday May 02, 2016 @08:15PM (#11616875)
Can a court order contempt just because they don't like your answers?

Can a court hold the jury in contempt for having the wrong verdict? They used to be able to.

Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by koenigdavidmj on Monday May 02, 2016 @01:17PM (#11613380)
Contempt in this case would be impossible after a couple days, when the iPhone will refuse to accept the fingerprint and instead require the passphrase. She is no longer capable of fulfilling the court's demand (use your fingerprint to unlock the phone) at that point.
Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by basch on Monday May 02, 2016 @02:07PM (#11613875)
not if they charged it? wouldnt it last forever?
Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by ubernostrum on Monday May 02, 2016 @03:19PM (#11614615)
Don't think of Touch ID as unlocking the phone.

You know how you can "sudo" and type your password (if you have an account with sudo privileges) and then for a few minutes afterward you don't have to type your password when you use sudo?

Think of Touch ID like that: the passcode is still the thing that unlocks the phone, but once it's been entered you can use Touch ID for a little while, in much the same way that sudo can remember you've recently proved yourself to it. After 48 hours, after a certain number of failed Touch ID attempts, or after any restart of the phone, though, Touch ID stops being available and the phone goes back to only being unlockable via the passcode (Touch ID will only become available after the next time the passcode is entered).

Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by basch on Monday May 02, 2016 @05:12PM (#11615678)
that is what i am asking, where is the 48 hour part. ive never left my phone untouched for 48 hours, except in a powered off state.
Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by philjohn on Monday May 02, 2016 @06:05PM (#11616085)
Everything you ever wanted to know about iOS security (and a few things you didn't know you wanted to know): https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf
Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by cstejerean on Monday May 02, 2016 @06:43PM (#11616344)
You don't have to leave the phone untouched for 48 hours. Even if you touch it you still need the passcode every 48 hours. TouchID only works for 48 hours past the last passcode login.
Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by huxley on Monday May 02, 2016 @08:11PM (#11616858)
Not quite, the passcode is needed 48 hours past the last unlock but the clock restarts with every login or unlock including TouchID unlocks.
Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by rhizome on Monday May 02, 2016 @10:38PM (#11617444)
Just as a point of reference, Android has a feature by which you can register locations at which a PIN is not required. I've registered my home (which is not super secure, since GPS resolution means it works anywhere in my apartment building), and I have to input the PIN every morning because the interval resets every 4 hours.
Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by gleenn on Tuesday May 03, 2016 @03:05AM (#11618525)
Where is that feature?
Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by rhizome on Tuesday May 03, 2016 @04:41AM (#11618907)
Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by tedd4u on Monday May 02, 2016 @06:48PM (#11616374)
basch what happens is, at a minimum, the iPhone requires your PIN or passcode every 48 hours to unlock. In between, you can use your finger as many times as you want. So the 48 hour timer should fire as soon as immediately after someone gets posession of your phone, but no more than 48 hours afterward.
Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by basch on Tuesday May 03, 2016 @09:21AM (#11620340)
that is not true, I dont type my pin in every 2 days.

from what I read, the device has to be left in a locked state for 48h.

Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by khedoros on Monday May 02, 2016 @03:12PM (#11614539)
Contempt is only supposed to be for when someone's action brings the mechanism of a trial to a halt. Refusing to do an action that the court thinks it's allowed to compel you to do is an example.

Say she waits two days. The phone won't be unlocked with a fingerprint now; it requires a passcode, and the court can't compel someone to provide a passcode in the same way that it can compel them to provide fingerprints.

Contempt wouldn't be a valid charge anymore, at that point. If the judge won't recognize that, the prisoner/suspect could appeal.

The above is my understanding of the theory of how it works. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it works differently in practice.

Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by chris_wot on Monday May 02, 2016 @03:28PM (#11614706)
Probably a ridiculous thought experiment, but I know folks have done similar things before, what if she cut off her thumb and disposed of it in such a way that it was irretrievable? Or something less permanent like dipping her thumb in acid to destroy the fingerprint surface - which would take weeks to heal. Would would the court do then?

It sounds to me like fingerprint authentication is not something a criminal should use if they don't want to get caught. Apparently a passcode is protected under the Fifth Amendment but not a fingerprint. [1]

But it's ridiculous really. All that a criminal needs to do is restart their phone to prevent their fingerprint from being used. And there are good reasons for doing so other than to escape incrimination! And that can be done from the lock screen... Imagine the criminal held down the power off button for three seconds then swiped, is that a crime? Perhaps that falls under spoliation of evidence, but then again how is not giving a passcode not considered spoliation?

Apple should require a user configurable timeout for requiring of a passcode. I'm sure it normally takes more than two hours to interview and charge someone.

1. http://www.macrumors.com/2014/10/31/fingerprints-not-protect...

Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by khedoros on Monday May 02, 2016 @03:45PM (#11614878)
> what if she cut off her thumb and disposed of it in such a way that it was irretrievable?

A contempt charge wouldn't hold any more (probably), but there's probably another charge that would apply, like spoliation of evidence [sorry, realized that you mentioned that charge further down in your comment].

> It sounds to me like fingerprint authentication is not something a criminal should use if they don't want to get caught.

True.

> Imagine the criminal held down the power off button for three seconds then swiped, is that a crime?

It's also not normally a crime for her to mutilate her thumb or for me to wave a knife around if I believe I'm alone and don't intend to harm anyone. Motive and context matter.

> but then again how is not giving a passcode not considered spoliation?

The act of making the fingerprint unusable would be the spoliation, I suppose. Not giving the passcode would be protected under the 5th.

Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by xkcd-sucks on Monday May 02, 2016 @07:13PM (#11616537)
>what if she cut off her thumb and disposed of it in such a way that it was irretrievable? Or something less permanent like dipping her thumb in acid to destroy the fingerprint surface

Sounds like intent to harm oneself, which gets one locked up in the loony bin until one demonstrates oneself to be of sound mind.

Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by chris_wot on Monday May 02, 2016 @07:54PM (#11616789)
Not necessarily, thank goodness!
Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by mywittyname on Monday May 02, 2016 @04:55PM (#11615520)
Sounds like obstruction of justice.
Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by chris_wot on Monday May 02, 2016 @07:50PM (#11616764)
As often happens, I've heard of this term but had to look it up. I think you are right, that is obstructing justice.
Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by koenigdavidmj on Monday May 02, 2016 @02:09PM (#11613894)
The iPhone requires a password after a couple days of inattention, and does not accept Touch ID logins.
Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by bitJericho on Monday May 02, 2016 @01:15PM (#11613361)
I don't think its a problem for someone actively breaking the law to be held indefinitely for contempt until they stop breaking the law.

I thought being compelled to reveal a passphrase was no longer required.

Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by themartorana on Monday May 02, 2016 @01:19PM (#11613414)
That's a problem for me. Charge and prosecute them or let them go. Indefinite detention without a fair and speedy trial is unquestionably unconstitutional.
Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by rayiner on Monday May 02, 2016 @03:54PM (#11614964)
The contempt power is in the Judiciary Act of 1789, so it's hard to say that the founding generation would have considered it unconstitutional.

Moreover, what exactly would she be tried for? Do we need a trial to establish that she has in fact continued to disobey the judge's order to unlock the phone?

Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by bsder on Monday May 02, 2016 @05:34PM (#11615862)
Yes, we probably would need a trial in that instance.

The courts really don't get to hold someone indefinitely without charging them with something.

Contempt is generally used as a quick and dirty hack for someone disobeying the procedures of the court. Not providing a fingerprint to unlock evidence is WAY beyond that scope and probably should require a hearing and trial.

Now, she could be detained while that hearing is proceeding, but that's different that just being jailed for contempt.

Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by rayiner on Monday May 02, 2016 @06:02PM (#11616071)
A trial for what?
Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by cmdrfred on Monday May 02, 2016 @09:44PM (#11617229)
If you can't charge her with a crime then why are you holding her?
Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by rayiner on Tuesday May 03, 2016 @11:25AM (#11621461)
She was arrested based on probable cause that she had committed identity theft. The search warrant is the process by which evidence needed to support formal charges.
Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by tptacek on Monday May 02, 2016 @11:13PM (#11617601)
In order to compel her to obey the orders of the court.
Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by bsder on Tuesday May 03, 2016 @05:49PM (#11624515)
If that order is lawful, then it probably has a chargeable crime behind it. If it doesn't, then there should be limit.

Compelling someone to open a phone with a fingerprint is far from settled law. It should be litigated properly as part of the trial rather than with a "contempt" charge.

In this instance, it is the court that is attempting to end run an unsettled area of the law using "contempt".

Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by bitJericho on Monday May 02, 2016 @01:21PM (#11613437)
Well imagine a criminal is holding a piece of your property or even a person and not revealing where that is. Do you think it's reasonable to hold them for 30 days and then let them go and say "ah well I guess you can return that/them if you want cuz you did your time."

A charge of contempt is still a charge.

Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by weaksauce on Monday May 02, 2016 @01:29PM (#11613518)
Convicted of a crime is different than suspicion of a crime.
Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by pavel_lishin on Monday May 02, 2016 @02:04PM (#11613848)
Do you think it's reasonable to imprison someone for life if they don't tell you where they hid your car?

And holding a person is already a separate charge - kidnapping and unlawful imprisonment.

Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by EdHominem on Monday May 02, 2016 @08:51PM (#11617030)
Or worse, they really didn't steal it and the court doesn't believe them.

An actual sentence eventually has an end.

Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by bitJericho on Monday May 02, 2016 @02:34PM (#11614145)
You can be charged with both. I hope you never have to deal with someone who flaunts the courts in your face. You'll be glad the system works the way it does, if anyone bothers to enforce the law.
Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by randommodnar on Monday May 02, 2016 @01:32PM (#11613547)
So do you think it's reasonable that contempt of court can carry a life sentence without even being convicted by a jury of your peers? Is contempt of court a worse crime than assault or manslaughter?

You have the right to not divulge information from your mind that would incriminate yourself. In the US this is called the 5th amendment.

Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by Natsu on Tuesday May 03, 2016 @01:15AM (#11618099)
There's no jury because it's regarding acts that occurred in court, so it's simply not meaningful to have a jury decide the facts of the case when they happened right in front of the judge, who does not need anyone to figure out the veracity of what they just personally witnessed.

The alternative is that people have a right to stop the courts from functioning. Our interests in not having courts that can be easily thwarted probably does outweigh our interests in any single conviction.

It's only forever if you refuse to comply for that long. It is coercive. The justice system does not, because it cannot, ask you to comply. It forces you to comply and it does not take no for an answer or it would not function.

Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by koenigdavidmj on Monday May 02, 2016 @02:00PM (#11613819)
Before you're given contempt for not divulging information you are given immunity from criminal charges as a result of that testimony.
Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by tanderson92 on Monday May 02, 2016 @02:22PM (#11614030)
Source? That is certainly not true in general.
Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by koenigdavidmj on Monday May 02, 2016 @02:29PM (#11614085)
Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by spdustin on Monday May 02, 2016 @03:07PM (#11614498)
As GP said, that's not true in general. Immunity is offered when the prosecution believes your testimony will result in further arrests or in prevention of future crimes. That circumstance is exceedingly rare outside of episodes of "24".
Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by chris_wot on Monday May 02, 2016 @03:45PM (#11614886)
They can't be charged with contempt over that. Compelling them to do so is forcing them to self-incriminate themselves.

Self incrimination protections are there for a good reason. If the person is on trial, then they haven't pleaded guilty - they say they haven't done what they are accused of. If they are in fact innocent, if the court decided to enforce them into provide this information and jailed them for contempt, it would literally be indefinite because they are innocent and cannot provide information on what they don't know!

I guess that's why a key or fingerprint is allowed - it is definitely something that can be used one way or the other. If they key doesn't work, it doesn't work. Same with a fingerprint.

But a passcode - it is not definitive. The defendant may say they don't know it as someone changed it on them. They then type in a wrong code: how are you going to disprove that?

Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by jayd16 on Monday May 02, 2016 @05:17PM (#11615711)
Is it more reasonable to get a life sentence because someone thinks you know something you don't?
Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by spdustin on Monday May 02, 2016 @03:02PM (#11614433)
Would you mind terribly quoting the law that requires me to submit to the physical act of unlocking my phone? Since it's not a two-factor system, it is equivalent to a passphrase, which (IIRC) has been upheld to be a form of testimony, and therefore the fifth amendment SHOULD allow the suspect to refuse to "utter their fingerprint", so to speak.

In any case, if the fingerprint isn't the same "testimony" as a passphrase, the suspect is not in violation of the law after 48 hours has elapsed, since "uttering their fingerprint" (as I'm choosing to style it) after 48 hours wouldn't unlock the phone any more anyway.

Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by khedoros on Monday May 02, 2016 @03:34PM (#11614766)
Providing a fingerprint isn't considered testimony, and the law doesn't currently make an exception for a fingerprint used as the equivalent of a passphrase. The fifth amendment protects knowledge, but not physical constructs like a fingerprint or DNA swab[1].

So, you can be compelled to provide a fingerprint, and the use that the fingerprint is put to is outside the scope of 5th amendment protections.

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-207_d18e.pdf

Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by taneq on Monday May 02, 2016 @10:06PM (#11617303)
It's gonna get really interesting if/when neuroscience advances to the point where we can just read a passcode out of someone's brainwaves. I don't see any legal difference between the fingerprint case and the brain-scan case (both are measuring a physical aspect of the person) but it's going to completely bypass the fifth amendment.
Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by rayiner on Monday May 02, 2016 @04:01PM (#11615042)
Merriam-Webster defines "testimony" as "something that someone says especially in a court of law while formally promising to tell the truth." The Supreme Court has interpreted this very broadly, to include anything that requires accessing information from the mind. That's why some courts have held that passwords are testimonial. But to read it to include touching your thumb to a fingerprint sensor obliterates any meaning the word has.
Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by spdustin on Monday May 02, 2016 @04:20PM (#11615207)
The reason the courts find the production of passwords to be testimonial is that they are used to access potentially incriminating evidence the specific existence of which the prosecution is not already aware of.

Further, the Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas (with Scalia joining) said that the 5th amendment applies to, "compelled production not just of incriminating testimony, but of any incriminating evidence." https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/99-166.ZC.html

The courts' definition of "witness" is what's relevant in addition to "testimony". Is your smartphone a privileged "witness"? I would think that to be the ultimate decision that needs to be made by the Supreme Court, and one that may in fact hinge on what person is next appointed to the Supreme Court.

Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by headShrinker on Monday May 02, 2016 @02:41PM (#11614215)
Prove that they broke the law!
Re:Judge Grants Search Warrant Forcing Woman to Unlock iPhon... by kayamon on Monday May 02, 2016 @09:31PM (#11617183)
I realize this isn't exactly the point, but couldn't he just tell them he 'forgot' his password? It's not like they'd be able to prove otherwise.