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Re:You probably don't need a JavaScript framework by untog on Saturday April 30, 2016 @10:58AM (#11601909)
> The web-boys however, didn't understand asynchronous messaging, cryptography and eventual consistency very well

Would it be fair to say you didn't understand the web frameworks very well?

I'm not sure that lines of code is a great measure here. What about test coverage? Maintainability? NPM is a package manager - anyone would advocate using that over manual dependency management, no matter what environment you're programming in.

It sounds like you had an expansion of the web team. It only makes sense that you'd standardise things when that happens. It just happens they weren't standards you are familiar with.

There's a perception among "server boys" (or are you "server men" looking over the "web boys"?) that the web doesn't deserve 15,000 lines of code. It's a lot more complex than you give it credit for - or would you be happy to write all your backend code in C and C only?

Re:You probably don't need a JavaScript framework by Silhouette on Saturday April 30, 2016 @01:33PM (#11602585)
NPM is a package manager - anyone would advocate using that over manual dependency management, no matter what environment you're programming in.

This is precisely the kind of generalisation that many experienced developers will rightly object to.

There is absolutely nothing unreasonable about manually downloading a specific version of a small number of self-contained libraries, and just using them either directly or integrated into some sort of bundling process. This has significant advantages in terms of simplicity, reliability, and transparency compared to the who-knows-what that NPM and its ecosystem will generate only to achieve the same end result.

You only really need to use NPM if you're working with lots of small packages and/or packages that have many small dependencies of their own, but either way, now you have two problems.

Re:You probably don't need a JavaScript framework by ssmoot on Saturday April 30, 2016 @02:25PM (#11602865)
To piggyback: If your library is a single source file and spec, I'm going to vendor it. Not add a dependency on it.

I'll probably do that in my "utility" library to keep my actual application project as light as possible. But I'm not going to add a dependency for 4 lines of code, as much as I may appreciate the effort you took in providing them. See https://github.com/btomala/akka-http-twirl/blob/master/src/m... for a recent example.

Re:You probably don't need a JavaScript framework by rimantas on Saturday April 30, 2016 @01:17PM (#11602533)
Lines of code can be a very good measure. You can have an app that is small and easy to fit into the mental model. Or you can wrap it up in huges framework and get lost between the abstractions. We have a saying to shoot sparrows from the cannon, and often using web frameworks looks like doing exactly this: you take trivial case and make it complex just because it is implied that frameworks are necessarey. Doing that you also kill accessibility (remember it? was a thing several years back), load times, etc.
Re:You probably don't need a JavaScript framework by untog on Saturday April 30, 2016 @01:54PM (#11602689)
> Doing that you also kill accessibility

?! What web frameworks kill accessibility, exactly?