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Re:SpaceX undercut ULA rocket launch pricing by 40 percent: ... by gozur88 on Thursday April 28, 2016 @10:05PM (#11593333)
>You're exactly right, except that I don't think ULA is going to have much trouble matching SpaceX's prices.

I do. In the '90s I was working for a company that was used to bidding cost plus contracts when DoD contracts pretty much dried up as a result of the collapse of the Soviet Union. Management tried very hard to realign the company to compete in the commercial sector and failed miserably.

Changing the focus of a large organization like that from performance to cost is extremely difficult. Your people aren't organized properly, your finances aren't organized properly, and you have a cost+ culture that's hard to kick.

A much cheaper and safer strategy is to get Congress to wire defense contracts for you. ULA has manufacturing all over the place. What that means is job losses at ULA will be politically unpalatable. Beyond that, a logical argument can be made against putting all the national space eggs in one basket.

Re:SpaceX undercut ULA rocket launch pricing by 40 percent: ... by bediger4000 on Thursday April 28, 2016 @11:00PM (#11593515)
Beyond that, a logical argument can be made against putting all the national space eggs in one basket.

If that argument actually carried any weight, then ULA wouldn't exist, but Martin, McDonnel Douglas Aerospace, and GD Convair would. That is, the DoD and the defense companies trot out any arguments they feel like, and hope that Congress accepts them.

I concur on your analysis of companies that are fat and happy bidding and working on DoD contracts. It's really, really hard to turn those companies around.

Re:SpaceX undercut ULA rocket launch pricing by 40 percent: ... by gozur88 on Thursday April 28, 2016 @11:23PM (#11593589)
>If that argument actually carried any weight, then ULA wouldn't exist, but Martin, McDonnel Douglas Aerospace, and GD Convair would.

Times have changed. I think Congress may have seen the error of its ways on this one.

Re:SpaceX undercut ULA rocket launch pricing by 40 percent: ... by bunderbunder on Friday April 29, 2016 @09:05AM (#11595431)
Thinking of Congress as a single entity that is capable of sustained memories is dangerous. Congress is a hive of bees, half of whom absolutely hate the other half, with individuals' life spans being potentially very short due to the mandatory fight-to-the-death that happens every 2 or 6 years. Said deathmatch inevitably leads to significant distraction, as well, since any sane individual is going to be concerned with their own survival to the point of preoccupation if it's constantly under threat. So each of these individuals is operating in the service of their own interests, which may or may not be in line with the interests of Congress or the nation as a whole.

Individual congresspeople might see why a past decision did or did not work out well in the long run. That's very different from seeing whether the same decision is politically expedient in the present moment. Nor does it necessarily imply that Congress as a whole is even capable of forming stable memories that can reliably retain that sort of knowledge.

Re:SpaceX undercut ULA rocket launch pricing by 40 percent: ... by gumby on Friday April 29, 2016 @01:16PM (#11597161)
This marvelous and insightful metaphor is deserving of its own post!
Re:SpaceX undercut ULA rocket launch pricing by 40 percent: ... by softrock on Friday April 29, 2016 @12:03AM (#11593680)
At the time ULA was formed it wasn't an error. The US had a serious problem with rocket reliability and lost more than a few very expensive satellites. The devlopment or reliable and on demand access to space was a matter of national security.
Re:SpaceX undercut ULA rocket launch pricing by 40 percent: ... by Ankaios on Friday April 29, 2016 @12:43AM (#11593807)
ULA was formed at the end of 2006. The United States had no rocket reliability problem at that time. (Not counting rockets in development, of course.) The Enhanced Expendable Launch Vehicles (Altas V and Delta IV) had good track records when they were merged into ULA—each already had several flights under their belts at that point.
Re:SpaceX undercut ULA rocket launch pricing by 40 percent: ... by Evolved on Friday April 29, 2016 @02:13AM (#11594042)
Times have changed. I think Congress may have seen the error of its ways on this one

Either that or Congress realized they can't sweep under the rug how much taxpayer money they could be saving.

Re:SpaceX undercut ULA rocket launch pricing by 40 percent: ... by syncsynchalt on Friday April 29, 2016 @05:15PM (#11598819)
(note: this post is not directed to you, I'm sure none of this is news to you. rather it's for the benefit of the audience)

ULA is safe for a while due to the DoD's requirement that they keep two domestic methods for space access alive.

Previously this was met with the combination of ULA's Atlas V and Delta IV. Now it'll be the F9 and Atlas V, with the expensive Delta IV being phased out (it's still occasionally needed as it's the largest booster still in operation worldwide).

However ULA's in trouble if another SpaceX shows up. I assume that's why they're working so closely with Blue Origin, better to capture that player now and get a cheap engine provider out of it.

Another input: cost isn't everything; the Atlas V has never lost a payload, while the F9 has. An extra $40m doesn't look like much if your payload is a half billion dollars, for example.

Re:SpaceX undercut ULA rocket launch pricing by 40 percent: ... by greglindahl on Friday April 29, 2016 @05:47PM (#11598989)
ULA will probably end up encouraging Bezos to build a complete rocket. There are some other players talking about using the BE3 (the tourist rocket engine) as an upper-stage engine, and ULA is likely to use the BE4. At that point, Bezos can market the complete rocket as "You already depend on our engines, why not try our complete rocket?"

You can't really "capture" a billionaire's business.

Re:SpaceX undercut ULA rocket launch pricing by 40 percent: ... by anovikov on Friday April 29, 2016 @03:49AM (#11594327)
It only applies when whole company was doing that. ULA is made from Boeing and LM, and Boeing does most of its job in the real market, selling passenger jets, and competes quite successfully.
Re:SpaceX undercut ULA rocket launch pricing by 40 percent: ... by simonh on Friday April 29, 2016 @06:12AM (#11594726)
The supply chain for their current rocket designs is a big problem. Many of the parts are outsourced to suppliers with very high overheads and margins, so they're already locked into a very high cost structure outside their own org. The only effective way to fix that will be to move to new designs with more efficient sourcing and cost structures and that will take time.

The other issue is capacity. Even if ULA dramatically cut their costs to drive SpaceX out of business, that will stimulate a huge surge in demand for launches. To drive anyone out of business, ULA would have to meet all of that demand on their own. I don't believe that's possible for them, they just don't have the capability to ramp up capacity fast enough, so SpaceX and other operators would pick up the excess business anyway.

Re:SpaceX undercut ULA rocket launch pricing by 40 percent: ... by gumby on Friday April 29, 2016 @01:43PM (#11597351)
> Even if ULA dramatically cut their costs to drive SpaceX out of business, that will stimulate a huge surge in demand for launches.

If only that were true. It does happen in many markets, but not currently in the space market. Space is still in the early-stage / chicken-and-egg mode. A bit of simple value chain analysis shows why.

TL;DR: we may be closer than I think to the space business moving into traditional economics, but even then it's probably decades out.

There are three disjoint space markets: - military: largely price insensitive; volume unknown to me but not enormous; has specialized needs so a lot of it couldn't be satisfied by COTS launch systems - science: some of which (earth sensing) can use COTS, the rest is low volume, has non-commercial requirements (e.g. non-LEO) and often has weird timing constraints depending on what the orrery says. - commercial, which is what we all want to explode in volume! Today this is 100% LEO.

Science is largely the space side of NASA and I personally am convinced congress only funds in order to provide enough economic volume that the contractors are available to support the military. I.e. a fig leaf for the military just like the DoE (whose hands are all over space science as well).

So commercial: the chicken and egg problem the compound of two (used to be three, see below) issues: launches are rare and expensive, so satellites are few and far between, which makes them expensive, which doesn't encourage volume, which doesn't encourage launch capacity development, which keeps them expensive... This is one of the reasons why previous private efforts (e.g. Rotary Rocket) have foundered. Despite what my libertarian friends say, it's almost impossible to break out of this trap without government incentive; the activation energy is too high.

Now almost is not the same as 100% and this is where I'd like to believe and agree with you. And I do agree, except the time base I believe in is too slow to support the phrase "huge surge in demand"

One thing that has been great is the folie à deux on the part of billionaires Bezos and Musk (I believe that SpaceX and Zip2 are the only companies Musk actually founded, right?) has allowed ego to try to break that cycle for LEO applications. Unless Google or Apple or Amazon can start pumping out satellites for internal use in high volume the overall market will grow slowly (who else is likely to buy a lot of satellites? I'm not sure). And even so that effort will take time to ramp up. If not...hard to see who will take up the slack.

I also look forward to non-LEO applications, like mining. It has its own bootstrap problem.

Re:SpaceX undercut ULA rocket launch pricing by 40 percent: ... by Faint on Friday April 29, 2016 @04:50PM (#11598661)
Much of the commercial communication satellites (like every TV satellite) go to GEO.
Re:SpaceX undercut ULA rocket launch pricing by 40 percent: ... by gumby on Monday May 02, 2016 @03:39AM (#11609777)
True, I was hasty / poor proofreading I'm sorry. Thanks for pointing that out!

However my main point is still true: today commercial and non-commercial applications have quite different needs and thus different economic drivers.