Re:Amateur ISIS Investigator Ends Up in Prison
by tptacek on Sunday April 24, 2016 @11:28AM
(#11559957)
NY and CA state-run mental hospitals are deeply unpleasant and staffed with overworked, underqualified doctors who have caseloads consisting of the very most difficult patients in numbers that would overwhelm private-practice doctors even if they were just teenagers with mild eating disorders. Is that the case in the Netherlands as well?
(For whatever it's worth: the NYT piece doesn't say Lopez was ever held in solitary, or that he was denied visitation by his family --- but solitary confinement is a distinctive US problem and a legit contrast to draw with the Netherlands).
Re:Amateur ISIS Investigator Ends Up in Prison
by tinco on Sunday April 24, 2016 @03:22PM
(#11560956)
A few years ago I would have confidently and naievely answered no to that question. Unfortunately recently a few scandals made it to the national news that Dutch mental institutions are not in the state we'd like to believe they are. As far as I understand the 'average' mental health patient is treated O.K., but there's not enough budget for the really hard cases where one patient basically requires full time supervision. One scandal was that instead of dealing with a patient like this, the staff had just put him in solitary confinement. Another scandal revealed cases of bullying and sexual abuse by staff. The sort you'd expect in a big organization with humans and awkward power relations, I can't say for sure if it's any better than those in the US.
Re:Amateur ISIS Investigator Ends Up in Prison
by ryanlol on Sunday April 24, 2016 @11:47AM
(#11560035)
> solitary confinement is a distinctive US problem
Not really, it's a problem in Europe too. We just don't talk about it.
If you get arrested here in Finland, you'll by default be in solitary and will remain so until the cops, not the courts, feel like letting you out.
Re:Amateur ISIS Investigator Ends Up in Prison
by roywiggins on Sunday April 24, 2016 @05:59PM
(#11561557)
Has anyone tried to challenge that sort of thing in the European Court of Human Rights?
Re:Amateur ISIS Investigator Ends Up in Prison
by ryanlol on Monday April 25, 2016 @02:40AM
(#11562793)
Yes, and Finland for example has consistently lost. The problem is that in practice these court decisions only end up benefiting the individuals bringing the suits, as it's almost impossible for public workers to get fired here they can safely ignore those decisions in most cases.
Re:Amateur ISIS Investigator Ends Up in Prison
by rayiner on Sunday April 24, 2016 @11:46AM
(#11560030)
If the FBI investigated, found he was mentally ill and armed, and then all they did was send a note to his doctor, and this guy ended up shooting someone, there would be public outrage at why he wasn't detained.
Re:Amateur ISIS Investigator Ends Up in Prison
by tinco on Sunday April 24, 2016 @03:25PM
(#11560967)
There's small outrages like that every now and then. I think it's better to have a system where every now and then a person is allowed to do something he's not supposed to, than a system where people should always be wary of communicating with their government in fear of being randomly detained for 14 months.
Re:Amateur ISIS Investigator Ends Up in Prison
by themartorana on Sunday April 24, 2016 @01:41PM
(#11560560)
I'm not particularly mad he was arrested. It's the extended trial-less detention (helped by the withholding of evidence by the FBI) that scares me. There's no speedy trial in the US anymore, and pre-trial detention can last years.
Don't get arrested. Your life will be ruined top to bottom.
Side note: I don't feel like anyone cares about real justice anymore...
Re:Amateur ISIS Investigator Ends Up in Prison
by rayiner on Sunday April 24, 2016 @04:21PM
(#11561202)
Long pre-trial detention is a huge problem in the state systems and one of the biggest human rights issues in the U.S. today. At the federal level, adherence to the Speedy Trial Act, which provides a 30-day deadline for indictment and a further 70 days to trial pretty good. Average pre-trial detention is about 4 months in the federal system.
The article states that Lopez was held in mental units in prisons--his long detention was probably the result of his mental situation.
He would annoy the AIVD (or RIVD?), at some point possibly breaking a law (the threat). The AIVD isn't authorised to arrest I think, so they would make a complaint and a police officer would come to his door, interrogate him, recognise the mental health issues and send a note to his physician.
The physician would call the guy and try to get him into a voluntary institution or at least to see some kind of therapist on a weekly basis. Let's say the guy is unreceptive to his.
Next step is that a social worker in his neighbourhood (this is a new system called wijkteam) is assigned to him that will visit his residence once a week. The worker will knock on his door and try to connect and build trust, family and friends are encouraged to participate in this process.
If the guy screws up too bad though, and the police gets involved another time or two the physician will be asked to authorise an involuntary treatment and he would end up in an institution of which would be much like a rich state in the US (NY, CA) one I think.
Note that nowhere in this process there would be a solitary confinement or separation from his family. That might happen in the NL but I can't imagine it would ever happen for more than a few days.